Shawna Potter

SHOW NOTES:

[TW: SA, r*pe, murder, violence]

Host Shawna Potter speaks to Palehound singer El about their song "Killer,"  a (platonic) love song about the desire to protect a friend from their abuser - and just how far they’ll go to do it. They discuss how El writes songs, the value of violence, and the considerations taken when writing songs about real people and their trauma. Then Shawna chats with Angeles Evans from TurnAround, an organization offering services to victims of trafficking, sexual assault and rape, and intimate partner violence (IPV). In this in-depth, long-form interview, they discuss how to help our friends affected by (IPV), what justice can look like, and what she wishes people knew about her violence-prevention work. It’s a must listen episode!

The official sponsors of this episode are First Defense Krav Maga, and Pupcakes and Pawstries, where you can use promo code waronwomen15 to get 15% off your next order.

Episode transcripts, important links, and ways to support Shawna and this podcast can be found at shawnapotter.com. Everything War On Women can be found at linktr.ee/waronwomen. For bonus episodes, behind the scenes content, and the chance to make special requests and get shoutouts on air, become a patron at patreon.com/shawnapotter.

Thanks to Brooks Harlan for chopping up War On Women’s song “Her?” to create the podcast theme song. Main podcast photo: Justin Borucki.

SPONSOR LINKS:

https://www.firstdefensekravmaga.com/

https://pupcakesandpawstries.com/

SHOW LINKS:

“Killer” Palehound - Killer [OFFICIAL AUDIO]

https://www.palehound.com/

TurnAround's 24/7 Helpline: 443.279.0379

TurnAround's 24/7 Text Line: 410.498.5956

TurnAround's Website: www.turnaroundinc.org

National Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE (7233)

Maryland Network Against Domestic Violence www.mnadv.org

Crisis Text Line: Text HOME to 741741

Decolonizing non violent communication: https://co-conspirator.press/Decolonizing-Non-Violent-Communication

To access confidential help, visit https://www.rainn.org or call 800-656-HOPE (4673)

https://righttobe.org/conflict-de-escalation-training/

Men Can Stop Rape: https://mcsr.org/

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

{intro music}

Shawna Potter:

Welcome to But Her Lyrics...the show where we delve into the political lyrics of songs I like, songs I wrote, or topics that I think should be a song. I’m Shawna Potter, singer and lyricist for War On Women - and your host. Big trigger warning for this episode! We will be talking about sexual assault, rape, murder, just violence generally - but luckily we’re in good hands because later I’ll be chatting with Angeles Evans, the Manager of Community Engagement and Training at TurnAround, Inc., a Baltimore-based rape crisis center. She’s gonna talk to us about her work and give us concrete ways to help our friends when they’re experiencing violence. Which is kind of what the song we’re focusing on today is about.  It’s called “Killer” by Palehound, and in the lyrics, singer/songwriter El is wanting to help a friend after they’ve open up about experiencing sexual violence, and is willing to go to extremes to do so.

But before we talk all things violence and non-violence, 

[patreon]

This episode's sponsors are First Defense Krav Maga in Virginia & Pupcakes and Pawstries. Their links are in the description below. Shoutout to my badass Recruit Melissa P. Sign up as a Recruit on my Patreon if you want an official sponsor shout out on the show. You’ll also get a copy of my book for free and get to make random requests! Head to patreon.com/shawnapotter to see everything else you get at any of the 6 available support tiers. I’m gonna use this as a reminder for my patrons to message me to schedule those one on one calls and shout outs.

Alright, this is a big episode, take breaks if you need to, and Text HOME to 741741 if you need to talk to a mental health professional right away. You can also call the National Domestic Violence Hotline 1-800-799-SAFE or  (7233)

[INTERVIEW TIME - please excuse any errors, this transcript has been auto-generated]

kay well Elle thank you so much for joining me on but her lyrics please

2:36

introduce yourself to everyone hi I am Elle I play in palehound

2:42

um and I use uh they she pronouns and I live in New York I don't know what else

2:49

to introduce myself that's pretty good that's relevant to what we're doing um yeah well we're here to talk about

2:54

your song killer which is on the album Black Friday which came out in 2019 right yeah it did can you tell us a

3:01

little bit about uh what's what's it about yeah killer I've been you know for

3:07

this podcast you kind of asked for like a more I would say like political song was maybe the word you'd used and I feel

3:13

like my political songs are not necessarily like any they don't really take the form of like protest songs that

3:21

are like overtly about like Politics as a subject or stuff like that not that I don't I mean I love music like that um

3:28

but I personally find the politics uh my politics like in my own kind of stories

3:34

from my life so this story is of a very close friend of mine who um just a few

3:40

years ago opened up to me about um their history with sexual violence

3:45

and you know this is a conversation that I feel like a lot of people have with their friends um who are you know women are non-binary

3:51

people queer people um anyone really is just you know there's I feel like the amount of conversations I've had like this with

3:57

people I love is endless so it's not really about this necessarily only this specific person but just the song is

4:03

just kind of my anger um and frustration that so many people I love have had to go through uh assault

4:10

and abuse in their lives and this one came from a specific friend of mine

4:16

opening up to me about their story but you know this was just a feeling and a sentiment I'd had for a while which is

4:22

like I want to kill these these guys who are doing this to people I love and and me and you know people yeah

4:30

so it is a true story and and like you say that it kind of is about how you

4:35

want to you're offering to to kill these folks and get them out of uh your

4:41

friend's life um has your friend heard the song yes do you know how they feel about it yeah I

4:47

mean I think when I first played it for them you know it was really emotional and uh they I think it it was something

4:54

that I was nervous to show them at first because I was kind of like this feels like it could be out of bounds to like

5:01

write a song about someone else's deep trauma in the way that it affects me but I wanted to do it in a way that was so

5:06

clear that the way it affects me is because it affects them and yes I'm kind of one of those friends that wants to

5:12

beat the out of anyone who wrongs someone I love so that's kind of what the vibe was and I went into and I was

5:17

like listen I don't have to release this song I don't have to do anything with the song I just wanted you to know that I have it and it's about this and it's

5:24

about you and they you know we cried about it and they

5:29

um were I think grateful for it that's so lovely that you you know ran up by

5:35

them and and said like that you don't you know got their consent basically to put it out in the world

5:41

um in order to avoid potentially re-traumatizing them if it's something that they weren't comfortable with that's that's great yeah I would never

5:47

uh put something out without someone's consent that had to do with that um and any kind of yeah anything like

5:53

that I would never do without someone's consent because consent is the issue at hand in the first place

6:00

um do you often write kind of true story narrative style lyrics or is killer an

6:07

outlier in that sense no I always do I feel like I um have always just since

6:12

I've started writing songs I've um written from my own personal experience and

6:18

um you know I've tried to kind of be someone who writes stories about other people and I've tried that in the past and I have succeeded at times or I've

6:24

tried to write about maybe a setting instead of a person or a feeling instead of a person or like a true story of mine

6:31

but everything really does Circle back to my experience because it's the only thing I feel smart enough to talk about

6:37

you're an expert on it that's true um when listening to this song and

6:42

listening to your other songs too um I felt like this one sounds pretty

6:48

haunting which I think really does match the subject matter even though you're

6:53

angry you're still talking about you know Murder and like planning this murder and like helping this person in

6:59

that way um how conscious of of that of this mood were you while writing the song

7:07

very um very kind well I mean the way that I write songs is that it's very rare that

7:12

I sit down with a guitar and write a guitar part and then start writing lyrics for that guitar part okay how's it normally go

7:18

so I usually do things really separately where I have um like a ton of voice memos on my phone

7:23

that are all you know riffs or me singing like really weird Melodies and I

7:30

kind of do like a puzzle like mix everything up so I'd have this guitar part written and I was like oh this is really like kind of Haunting but also in

7:37

this like cowboy way and it kind of and I had it kind of sitting and I was like I like how the surf sounds but it needs

7:42

a very specific subject and then you know these lyrics came to me um and I was like huh actually these

7:48

lyrics would really work well with that part that I was playing because I was kind of thinking like oh the combination

7:54

of like this kind of haunted uh country-ish guitar part with these

7:59

lyrics could make for a real like Kill Bill moment you know it was kind of not to be that you know that that's

8:05

like right something inspired by Kill Bill because that's kind of basic but you know I it was a little basic but I I

8:12

you know kind of was running with like the Nancy Sinatra like you know uh

8:18

what's the word I'm looking for uh uh vigilante Vibe yeah like I can tell you're angry but it's like a calm

8:25

collected cold anger you know right because it's the anger after the first

8:30

burst of anger right so I think like I wrote this song Not In the Heat of my anger where I'm like this you know

8:36

sorry I don't even know if I can swear on this um yeah you can don't worry about it you know because it takes me a while to

8:43

process things to write about them like it's very rare that I'll be in a moment um where I'm experiencing something and

8:49

then I'll write immediately right so usually when I write a song I've had time to reflect on the subject and so

8:56

this song does kind of take place in that moment after the original like moment where I'm like okay I

9:03

know I'm really pissed but now I'm gonna do something about it and so that's what the song's about it's just kind of like what the moment after I processed just

9:12

like this subject and was like what could I possibly do about it and then started like fantasizing about revenge

9:17

so that's kind of where the song takes place in my own uh Journey with certain information I guess

9:24

I'm sad too you know yeah you kind of touched on it before but I want to dig into it a little bit

9:30

um uh I my band also has a kind of a thought Experiment song about killing

9:37

all men um which and it sounds very angry but personally I'm like 97

9:44

anti-violence in in my life and and how I work uh you know towards the the goal

9:50

of a violent violence-free World um how do your views on the consequences

9:57

of violence and Justice differ or align with the point of view kind of put

10:03

forward in this song oh man I mean it kind of aligns but not to

10:09

sound like at the risk of sounding you know bad I kind of you know my my the song is about

10:17

you know kind of my weapon in the backseat lyric reference events and I

10:22

try not to say gun specifically in the song because I don't want to be like me and my gun running around shooting I

10:29

actually didn't assume it was necessarily a gun exactly so it could be anything so but in terms of like you

10:35

know I don't know I think sometimes I even though I would love to believe in an anti-violence world and I want to be

10:42

there 100 and I have been there in the past I've always kind of in the past I was like why you know stoop to that

10:48

level and we don't need violence and we don't need that but I think over the past few years I've kind of developed this feeling of like well if violence is

10:55

going to be happening if these people are going to be violent then you know fighting it with what you know not being

11:01

the peaceful one in the paper in the face of violence sometimes also is valuable to be violent back frankly and

11:08

I think there's that's some some for some people the only way that they can be communicated with is through violence

11:14

back to them or else they don't face consequences um and so I know that this sounds kind

11:20

of bad possibly but um you know no do I wish that I could like maybe not kill this guy but like

11:26

deeply uh mess them up 100 if I could right now I would sorry but I would

11:34

I feel like I'm not being politically uh correct on saying that I would I mean

11:40

honestly I choose violence sometimes the the three percent of me that is uh okay

11:47

with violence is is the percentage that realizes that as an individual I maybe

11:53

cannot be in a position to judge another individual who has experienced violence

11:59

and if if they want to retaliate um because of their own personal

12:05

oppression like who am I to say no don't right you know um right so like I get it

12:13

I get it but you know writing a song and wanting to like you know kill this dude even like just fantasizing about it

12:19

obviously it doesn't help our friends in that in the moment um so what did you find was helpful to

12:28

to support your friend or what resources did you point to your friend that maybe you could share with listeners in case

12:34

one of their friends comes to them with a story hmm that's a hard one that's

12:40

hard to be like tips or tricks you know to overcoming severe trauma you know I don't really maybe so you know

12:49

you know I don't really have tips and tricks for that I think like what I have for that is

12:54

um just constant access to my my resources with when people tell me that

13:00

is like well I'm always here because I know that like what I can do is that if you ever need to talk or scream or

13:06

anything and if you want to talk to me and not get an opinion if you want to talk to me and get an opinion like I know what I can offer you as a support

13:13

system as someone who will listen to you and believe you and provide you with a space to do that

13:18

um obviously I'm always trying to tell people to be in therapy I'm always trying to tell people to find Community around their trauma

13:24

um and maybe try to find support groups or find you know just the plethora of things that you can find but also I feel

13:32

like it's hard for me to just tell people what to do when I have not had

13:37

that specific experience and I don't know what's best for them you know I think what that's just why I'm kind of like this is what I can offer you as a

13:44

friend and I will do anything that that can help you through this um and you know I'll hear about resources and stuff and point people in

13:50

different directions but I don't have like a a list of of things or anything go-to's no but you know you have Google

13:57

and just the fact that you're saying that you'll be there and how do you want me to show up I think I think that that

14:03

is actually great advice for anyone listening that's the first thing is just to say that I'm here what do you need

14:09

I'm not a therapist so I'm never going to pretend to be the person that knows how to you know fully address certain

14:15

people's trauma like I'm never gonna be like do this do that I know what you should do I know how you should act so I

14:21

think that's kind of where where I always am aware is like I'm not going to diagnose you I'm not going to like try to treat you I'm just gonna be here for

14:27

you to like yell at or scream at or cry at or anything like that's why I'm here I think that's an invaluable role to

14:34

play for someone I think that's that's perfect Switching gears a little bit um

14:40

I noticed that you have some newer singles on Bandcamp I didn't see them on Spotify like is

14:48

there a story there is there something am I missing something no I don't think it will are you I don't know am I am I

14:56

what songs in particular I don't know and maybe we'll cut this because it's nothing I don't know it's okay I no I

15:02

think there are some songs well there's that song how long but that should be on Spotify

15:08

um and then I did an Autumn sweater cover and that should also be on Spotify

15:13

um can't think of what's on my bandcamp that wouldn't be on my Spotify at this point well maybe the right thing to say is is

15:21

uh where can people find your music when you tell everyone where to find your music and where to find you oh yeah um I

15:27

mean I'm on Instagram and I'm updating that with shows and stuff mostly in terms of if you wanted to follow like

15:33

where calendar stuff is or if I'm releasing something that's definitely my main platform of communicating with

15:39

people but um I mean I always encourage people to listen or buy off band camp first because you know as much as I want

15:46

to be like listen on Spotify playlist on Spotify which I do and if you have that that's great I have Spotify whatever we're all playing the game that they are

15:53

making us play but um I do like to recommend bandcamp still because that is a way better platform and is much fairer

16:00

to artists and isn't like uh evil like Spotify is exactly frankly well L I know that you

16:08

have a busy day ahead of you and I also have to run to something um but it has been amazing to talk with

16:14

you about this song I think a lot of people can absolutely identify with the

16:19

feeling of being so angry that someone would hurt their friend family member

16:26

partner um and not knowing where to put those feelings and you know how lucky are we

16:31

that we get to put them into songs yeah 100 well thank you for having me oh yeah

16:37

thanks for thanks for chatting with us today um all right bye y'all cool see you later

——-

Big thanks to El from Palehound for chatting about some vulnerable and real shit. One thing I love about songwriting is that it provides this extra layer of protection when talking about hard things, I can hide a little bit behind the loud music, the performance of it all, the fact that not every lyric has to be 100% autobiographical to make a good song, so I appreciate you El, and every other songwriter I’ve interviewed, for potentially putting yourself in a vulnerable position, removing that little layer of protection, and talking about your feelings in such an open and vulnerable way.

Next up, my chat with Angeles from TurnAround Inc, who shared a bunch of resources with me after our interview, national numbers and websites and chat lines, I’ll put them in the show notes. But keep listening to hear about the amazing work she does, how prevention really is key, and how we can respond to a friend in need.

[INTERVIEW TIME - please excuse any errors, this transcript has been auto-generated]

Angeles Evans, thanks so much for joining me on but her lyrics uh in this episode we are breaking down a song called killer by an artist called

18:00

palehound which is kind of about uh wanting to protect your friend that has

18:05

experienced harm or or intimate partner violence through the use of violence and

18:11

revenge um so before we take our Deep dive into the song uh or about those topics

18:18

describe uh what turnaround is what you do there and introduce yourself all

18:24

right thank you so much for having me uh yeah so my name is Angelus Evans and I

18:29

currently serve at turn as turnarounds prevention Education and Training manager uh turn around we are a

18:37

Baltimore City Baltimore County and newly uh Howard County based non-profit

18:43

that provides a wrap-around services to those who have been impacted by issues

18:49

of human trafficking sexual assault as well as to be a partner violence so our services can really stem from anything

18:56

from Clinical therapy case management legal advocacy prevention education

19:02

um in a 24 hour seven day week crisis helpline and probably the most important thing to know is that all of our

19:08

services are free to the survivors and those supporting survivors that we serve

19:14

amazing amazing so let's get the basics out of the way what is intimate partner violence or ipv who's affected by it

19:22

give us a rundown yeah so ipv I think oftentimes is use interchangeably with

19:28

the term domestic violence so you'll find some definitions out there where they'll say oh instrument partner

19:35

violence is a form of domestic violence or you'll find folks making very clear distinctions between the two domestic

19:42

violence historically have been attributed to those one who are married

19:48

um and those who are often heterosexual and those who are often living and sharing the same home it's been partner

19:55

violence really opens up that definition um in terms of survive folks who may be

20:02

uh in relationships that are currently dating or formally dating and uh yeah

20:09

and they don't have to necessarily live together they again they don't have to necessarily be in an active relationship

20:16

um and it kind of encompasses all forms of abuse so if you hear terminologies

20:21

like physical abuse sexual abuse uh emotional abuse uh mental abuse it

20:27

encompasses all of those things um it's interesting because intimate partner violence again kind of searing

20:34

away from that word of domestic violence um CDC even qualifies it as like a

20:40

public health issue that it is something yeah it is something that they they

20:46

address um very aggressively and organizations like turn around we kind of do the work

20:53

of carrying it as such so it's very Broad and as far as who it affects it

20:59

affects everyone um I think that when we are breaking this down more if we weren't being sold

21:05

basic um it affects people it shows up in different ways especially as uh given

21:11

the topic today how people seek out support and help in those spaces depending on how they're showing up in

21:17

this world it may show up a lot different but it really does affect anyone anyone of any social economic

21:23

status any religious group any cultural group of male identifying woman

21:29

identifying yeah so it really plays out across ages and and everything

21:34

uh in the song Killer by palehound uh L the singer um is sort of taking it upon themselves

21:41

to help an abused Friend by quote killing the man who hurt you yeah and I

21:48

believe the desire for Revenge uh that anger is very human you know and and it

21:53

can feel like protecting our loved ones or ourselves uh to to engage in it

22:00

um but it's my understanding that enacting Revenge upon an abuser usually

22:05

ends up hurting the victim is that true and if so how does that usually play out

22:12

well I definitely don't want to speak from the perspective of uh someone who doesn't identify as a Survivor as far as

22:19

if it doesn't you know like feel a certain way for for that person speaking

22:26

for turnaround I mean our mission is to end violence of every form although we

22:33

work with these very specific type of folks who have been harmed um but the repercussions of any type of

22:40

justice that you are seeking after you have been abused uh there will be

22:47

repercussions of that um I know at turnaround our work is very much Survivor centered as far as folks

22:54

making those decisions for themselves of what Justice looks like what healing looks like what empowerment looks like

23:02

um but yeah I mean it obviously if you murder someone that is against the law so the Survivor uh however they are

23:11

feeling actually about an act such such as that or someone who's supporting the Survivor

23:17

um it is it is they're going to have repercussions of that because it's the law it's the the way of the land it is

23:23

the way that we operate as uh you know as a society however

23:28

um yeah that I think that particularly coming from that perspective of someone who's supporting the Survivor that's

23:34

even more interesting because this is the song is written from this lens of

23:40

someone who's supporting the Survivor not the actual Survivor so one thing that we have to be mindful of as we're

23:45

showing up for survivors is centering their decision making in that when you

23:52

experience something like sexual assault when you experience something like intimate partner violence there is a

23:58

taken away of your power so when you're supporting someone you really have to

24:03

play this role and if you are committing to joining this journey in some form of

24:09

having of letting that person find their power again so doing something on

24:15

someone's behalf that's like the first alarming thing because they've already had that taken away from them in so many

24:20

various forms right right they might not want you to to go beat someone up exactly yeah so when we show up uh if a

24:29

friend confides in us uh about experiencing ipv um we we it sounds like we we want to

24:36

Center what their needs and wants are um what are some other Basics like what

24:43

if they don't know what they want or need um like what do we what do we do to help someone who confides in us and

24:49

um yeah what do we do yeah I think that's a uh that last part that you said uh sometimes they don't know and I think

24:56

that's the hardest part because oftentimes someone who's experienced

25:02

um something like intimate partner violence some form of abuse um they don't have the answers and

25:09

you're sitting there saying thinking I don't have the answers either but you may just be a little bit quicker to kind

25:15

of think of some just because again you aren't the one who directly experience the harm so you kind of want to offer

25:20

that up very quickly but really it is in the art is really in the listening and

25:26

listening actively and you think that something as simple as saying I hear you

25:31

something as simple as saying thank you for telling me thank you for sharing seems really vague and lack lustered it

25:39

doesn't feel like initiative uh but it really is power in that and I think you have to know it's a journey right it is

25:47

it is really a journey I read recently uh someone speaking about grief and they

25:53

were same because particularly with abuse there is a sense of a loss of self so that is true too right and someone

26:01

said that I read that someone noted that grief time doesn't heal grief grief just

26:07

changes right so I think it made me think about out healing and healing with

26:14

folks who experience this healing may not have it in game it just changes

26:20

along the way and I think it starts with that very first share right it really

26:25

does start right there as far as how you shared this very personal

26:31

uh shameful uh guiltful thing and now

26:36

what is what is what are the little blocks that just are kind of getting you back to changing to feel somewhat like

26:45

someone who can actually deal and move forward knowing that this has been an experience that they've had

26:52

and my work I I wrote a book called making spaces safer I teach bystander

26:57

intervention and I train people to create safer spaces wherever they go and so that you know it's on that spectrum

27:03

of preventing and responding to violence for sure um and so I get all kinds of questions

27:08

in my trainings about all kinds of stuff that I usually feel like I'm not qualified to answer especially when it

27:14

comes to more like into a partner violence or transformative Justice it's just kind of not my expertise but yeah

27:20

but I will I think the tips I give most often are you know just acknowledging like the way

27:26

that you respond to someone disclosing can affect how they process the rest of

27:33

their healing so if you're just listening and you're caring and you're warm and you're not trying to talk over

27:39

them or offer Solutions right away but really just being there to listen and validate how they feel that that will go

27:47

a long way um on their path to healing and it does it does feel small in the moment it does

27:54

feel like you're not doing anything but it really makes a huge impact in the long run

27:59

um but I think where where people get tripped up then is well what do I do if

28:06

I suspect someone is experiencing ipv they didn't disclose to me but I think

28:12

maybe they're in trouble what do I do that won't harm them even further or

28:18

bring attention onto it um I don't know if you can hear my dog she's straight up like herself

28:25

um I can't okay well that's great okay I assume any kind of pandemic person

28:31

that's ever been on Zoom will understand what's happening um but just in case it made it through uh regular podcast

28:38

listeners are used to it um okay so what do people do if they suspect someone is experiencing ipv yeah

28:46

I I the first thing that came to mind as you were kind of uh bringing that in is just some of the things you I get this

28:53

question a lot from parents who think that their children are in some type of

28:59

healthy unhealthy relationship and I think particularly when you suspect it if especially if it's a friend or

29:06

something like that and there's a rapport there you they there's already hopefully there's already a dynamic of

29:11

communication and sharing and comfortability that you can really build

29:17

upon and I always kind of recommend not to go straight to the thing but try to

29:23

kind of go around and get an idea uh through more ambiguous questions maybe a

29:28

lot lines of questioning and genuine concern uh of trying to get a feel for

29:34

to try to get a feel on whether your feelings are correct as far as that suspicion and that uh thinking that

29:40

something may be happening uh but I think that just asking uh playing and

29:46

one of the things that I really love to do actually is play off of current events like current relationship

29:51

Dynamics and getting people to kind of get uh talking about those types of things like celebrity relationship or

29:58

something be like that was kind of weird right what do you think yeah absolutely and I I didn't go into like what I

30:05

specifically do at turn around but my work is deeply rooted in prevention education so this is working a lot of

30:12

times with you so young people who are developing relationships and really trying to identify what their boundaries

30:17

are uh what they want how they identify love and affection and all of those

30:22

things and I mean one of the a great facilitation uh activity is just like

30:28

taking current very open relationships and kind of breaking those down you know

30:33

like what are you doing came in healthy here why don't you deeming unhealthy here I think that exposing them to

30:40

communities like turn around could be a very in uh indirect way to say like oh I

30:47

know this organization or hey do you want to follow us on social media follow this like I saw this today sharing it

30:54

let's go volunteer let's go to an event yeah any of those types of things right like and then just again still being in

31:02

that space though of actively listening so when there is a window that has been

31:07

created there just kind of taking that opportunity to name what you're at least observing and seeing and checking in to

31:14

see how that person feels about that um and what they want to do like asking

31:20

if they need help in some type of way asking if you could do some more trips to their homes or where they're holding

31:27

space with their partner you know and stuff like that sharing materials even indirectly they watch your stories on

31:33

Instagram all the time so start sharing these things right you're always talking to somebody on there right so you're not

31:40

just always sharing it for yourself so there are a lot of ways I think you kind of do that I think you have to really

31:46

check in with your own Comfort level on whether you want to be super clear and name something

31:51

um I think there's also a dynamic there's definitely also a dynamic of kind of uh assessing the level of danger

31:59

someone is in right so like if you actively saw a partner hit their partner

32:05

that is another conversation other than these ambiguous questions and sharing

32:10

things on social media and taking windows that is something to name but

32:16

still actively listen believe and validate and ask the person how they

32:21

kind of want to move forward after not only they've experienced it but you in

32:27

term may have even witnessed this in some form or fashion as well yeah I think yeah letting people know that

32:33

you're there to help even if they don't want to take your help right away exactly it's really important just

32:38

maintain that you're there and then not going in hot and being like hey leave my friend alone

32:44

yes because you don't know what people are doing behind closed doors after do you leave and so you want to not make it

32:51

worse for them yeah after you leave that place right and definitely educating yourself on some best approaches of how

32:58

to support someone in that way and uh yeah like and spending some time on how

33:04

you are processing what's happening because again you care and and love for someone that shows up for you in certain

33:10

ways as well also I think it's really hard to to name too when you do not feel

33:17

like you are the best person to support someone I think that's something too that people are oftentimes kind of

33:24

circling around like I actually have a personal investment in this I've actually had this my own experience and

33:30

I cannot be triggered or alarmed in this way um but being comfortable with how you're

33:36

going to leave that situation whether that's just like I'm sharing this resource it's not something that I can talk about any longer or this is a

33:43

boundary that I really have to set like I want you to know that I'm here to help but it's not something thing that I can

33:49

continue to have conversations about it is not something that I uh feel as though I'm the best person to support

33:55

you in this because I have a lot of feelings of how I would want to handle it but I really want to value and

34:00

respect the way you want to move forward let's take a breeze

34:08

[Music]

34:13

breather [Music]

34:19

if someone in our community is accused of rape or abuse or intimate partner

34:24

violence ideally what does Justice look like or

34:29

what are our options especially when many victims are from groups that

34:34

traditionally do not trust the legal system to keep them safe people of color trans and non-binary people disabled

34:40

people immigrants etc etc um and and I'm sort of also thinking about this from the from my community my

34:48

point of view which is kind of like punk rock music community of a lot of times I

34:54

think people just try to run abusers out of town get out of here and then they just go on to another town and do the

35:01

same thing so so so not that right what

35:07

are our options to actually get Justice and change Behavior yeah I

35:13

think our options always start and this is not just because I am a prevention education

35:20

yeah because I'm totally biased yes um it really does start in these preventive measures

35:27

um I I am a strong I I do this work under this lens that I am here to

35:36

um Implement preventive strategies through this lens that hopefully you are giving

35:42

people the knowledge and the tools to one one to change their own lives and communities to want to find their own

35:50

healing methods and what feels like justice for them and also for them to

35:55

share their own stories at their own times and their own willingness so uh I

36:01

think that it definitely it can start are ways to address this can really start in prevention of it never

36:06

happening in the first place and really holding space uh to have conversations like we're having today right to take a

36:14

a you know a song and unpack that and talk about what it means for people and

36:21

everyone involved as as is described right uh but I think I don't know if

36:27

there is an ideal right I definitely don't think there is an ideal because when you're talking about things like

36:32

our Justice systems and the way show folks show up in that system it has its flaws right so you have to

36:41

we're talking about a lot when we even say that right we're not just talking about someone who's been assaulted in

36:46

some way and now they're seeking out justice but we're talking about a lot of social issues by just naming that one

36:53

thing um I think that again you want to center it around the survivor's choice and what

37:00

feels good for them I think again the traditional route is that this person would go to court and this person the

37:07

Survivor would have their time in court where they can go in and feel really great about sharing their story and then

37:15

that person is punished in some way right and they're kept from being able to harm another person that could look

37:22

like justice for someone um there's a terminology restorative justice that's being that's utilized

37:29

around our work where again it's really centered around a survivor's choice of how they want to seek out Justice and

37:38

that can really look like a lot of things it could look like uh supportive circles it could look like being on

37:43

community reparation boards it can look like Victim Impact panels it can look

37:49

like um having victim offender dialogue which is something that is like a lot right

37:55

and for those who are listening who don't know what I'm talking about there but it's like it is when a victim actually wants to sit down with their

38:03

perpetrator and have a conversation about uh what they experience when they

38:09

have that experience with them right it can look like sharing circles but it really does overall I think if I if I

38:17

thought about the most ideal situation it would be living in the community where everyone is has a personal

38:24

investment in how we support survivors and how we prevent

38:31

violence in the first place so I love that yeah so I think that

38:36

that's really where I landed with that when yeah I was really tossing around with that question and I think that that

38:43

is uh just some of the ways but I it definitely is no ideal way of this

38:48

because the idea would be that no one would experience this in the first place right and we can keep working towards

38:54

that yeah um how has the metoo movement affected your work for better or worse

38:59

you know it's been a few years have you seen any changes it definitely affects our work as an agency I want to

39:06

normalize conversations around unhealthy relationship Dynamics around issues of

39:12

sexual assault intimate partner violence human trafficking because the more that we actually normalize having the

39:18

conversations the more likely people are to name their their abusive experiences so the me too movement it is that it is

39:27

like it is a calling out it is a naming and you have people in inspired by that

39:35

you have people who really struggle about the methods of which that movement has moved even when you say that we need

39:42

to movement there's also a lot of things about who have been the faces of those of that movement right so again you're

39:48

saying one thing but you're saying a lot and that means different things for

39:54

different people right so I think it helps uh overall that's a personal take

40:01

um I think that it in agency wise I think it informs the word right because

40:06

just like any type of work that anyone's doing is going to change with the times

40:12

it's going to evolve hopefully um and it's going to keep being pushed forward so uh so yeah it definitely has

40:19

it's informing it definitely has its helpful Dynamics but it also means a lot

40:25

for a lot of different people and yeah it shows up differently for folks who

40:31

made looked at that and say well I don't know if I can allow myself with that because that wasn't my experience when I

40:37

sought out Justice right yeah it just wasn't that and then yeah and I think

40:43

you have to be realistic about faces of that movement these are people who have resources who have different things that

40:50

are tribute to them so I think there's a a lot there but I think again you have

40:56

to center it back to what the Survivor wants to do because does looking like outing someone online right what does

41:04

that look like for a 14 year old girl in Baltimore City who has to go to school

41:10

every day after that right like what does that look like for a young a young

41:17

boy who is on a sports team and is speaking out about being sexually

41:22

assaulted right like what what does that look like for folks who have to still

41:27

live their lives what do you wish people knew about intimate partner violence

41:34

it really has to be that it really does affect everyone the reason why the CDC

41:39

categorizes it as a public health issue is because it connects to everything I

41:48

know personally my identify as a secondary Survivor of intimate partner violence and for those again who are not

41:55

familiar with that terminology that means someone who was exposed to intimate partner violence possibly in

42:02

their home but they weren't directly affected but they were essentially exposed to it and it ongoingly in a in a

42:09

setting um and my experience was actually seeing like a male being abused by a woman and

42:19

I think that um yeah like growing up with that Dynamic and then getting into this work

42:24

and saying oh and then everyone's saying oh no the women women yeah women are the ones who are like this Wonder Woman

42:31

exactly I'm like I'm like wait that was isn't necessarily my experience right so

42:36

so yeah like and it's been partner going for for both but still seeing that

42:42

you've seen those Dynamics uh play out right and I think that that is really

42:47

what I I would love for people to take the approach that not only this is not

42:52

just something that we see on television it is not something that we just hear

42:57

you know the little verbal just these verbal Encounters in public settings it

43:03

is really something that affects everyone when you talk about Justice right you want to you're thinking about

43:08

the Survivor that they're ex that who's experience it you're thinking about the

43:13

community members who are supporting that Survivor you also people may not want to think about this but think about

43:19

the perpetrator and then the family and friends of that person and the shame and guilt that they're also experiencing so

43:26

like everyone is affected by this and uh again we want to stay focused on

43:33

censoring the Survivor but knowing that them being at the center there are a

43:39

number of folks that surround them and are also feeling the effects of what they've endured yeah well hopefully this

43:46

episode does drive that home uh because this song is not about a cisgender woman

43:51

uh the the friend of the singer in palehound she's not a gender woman so uh

43:57

trans non-binary keeping them in our hearts and yes it affects everyone and

44:03

it can play out in different ways community and and I totally hear what you're saying about depending on what

44:09

community you're from your version of Justice might look a little different depending on your relationship with the

44:16

legal system or police or you know the state yeah um so hopefully this next

44:23

question is fun but it might actually be like it might really anger you I don't know um let's see you know I'm a punk

44:29

rocker I'm all about anger that's fine um uh which word from the violence

44:35

prevention world is the most annoying for you to see misused on the internet

44:42

definitely gaslighting yes yes for sure yeah I think that's mine too yeah

44:48

gaslighting for sure let me be clear it's a serious tool of a manipulation

44:55

and mental abuse um which in turn has this emotional

45:01

abusive Dynamic so when it's so constantly used in a way misuse it just

45:08

loses its value unfortunately and that is that that's that's the main thing it's not like people can say you know

45:15

they'll say what they'll say but um the the more that we use it it loses the

45:21

actual impact of How It's actually used especially in intimate partner violence

45:27

relationships so yeah so for the record what is gaslighting for real what is it

45:33

for real so so gaslighting I guess the the most

45:38

simple way to put it is is making someone believe that they are crazy for

45:43

believing something that is absolutely true right um so it and it's a it's a build up like

45:50

people get you into that place where they're able to say things that you

45:55

absolutely want to take as a matter of fact in truth because they've already laid the groundwork of diminishing your

46:01

intuition of diminishing your intelligence diminishing your knowledge

46:06

and your knowingness of of a particular topic so it it's it's definitely like

46:11

this groundwork Dynamic of of making someone not believe in themselves in

46:17

order to be able to kind of tell them anything in turn for them to can be compliant to whatever you're trying to

46:24

get this person to do for you yeah so it's not just uh you're saying something

46:29

I don't like yeah it's definitely not or you disagree with me about something Therefore your gas exciting me yeah yeah

46:35

it's not and it's it's very repetitive too so I think that that's the way that

46:41

it's been uh it can be repetitive again because of that ground work that it's laid so I think that's the other thing

46:47

about the misuse is that usually it's like it's a one-off incident and then they're like this is this is this and

46:54

this is what you've been doing type of thing yeah and all of that is why anyone

46:59

can find themselves a victim of ipv is because you don't you don't go on the

47:05

first date and immediately start getting gas lit or or hit or anything like it's

47:11

it's a slow and steady process to chip away at your self-confidence and your

47:16

Social Circle your support so and then oh wait a second I'm in an

47:22

abusive relationship yes but it can take forever for it to for you to realize

47:27

that that's what's happened and that's why anyone no matter how strong or Brave or smart they are like it doesn't matter

47:34

yeah I always note to people just think about if if I if I'm in front of an

47:40

audience and I'm like this is not Landing I kind of I love to I love to leave them with the thought of just like

47:46

think about the relationship you stayed in just a day too long right like just

47:52

think about the relationship the codependency you felt to someone you know like just think about those things

47:58

and it may not they it probably was no indication of abuse happening there but

48:04

you just knew the relationship should end now think about that when someone has manipulated you think about that

48:09

when someone has been physically aggressive towards you think about that when someone has withhold or taken away

48:17

your withhold sex from you or has taken away your power to make decisions about

48:22

your sexual activity and think of like that's how easy it is to get to be in a

48:30

situation and such because it's just like we all have something that we we held on to a little longer than we knew

48:36

that we should have so like again centering it around this person's

48:42

experience and how they're seeing things and just offering how can I be of help

48:48

well that is a wonderful place to leave it thank you so much Angeles for for sharing all this great information with

48:54

us so we can help our friends and maybe also see our way out of it if it happens to us yeah

Local to me folks should follow Turnaround on socials, usually at @turnaround_inc and program their phone number or text helpline number into your phone in case you need it. Well that’s just a good general safety planning tip - save the numbers of your local IPV centers, shelters, suicide hotlines, etc, so you and anyone you encounter can get some advice during a tough time. Anything else, Angeles?

we're also on LinkedIn too if you're interested in

that maybe they're hiring people come on help do the work put your money where your mouth is

um all right thank you so much for joining me today and thank you for all of the work you do thank you

Alright, thanks Angeles, and of course El from Palehound. And thank you, listener, for getting through what could be a very tough episode for most. It is not lost on me that this will likely be released around Int’l Women’s Day, so I’ve either had a really great on-theme accident, timing-wise, or I’ve made a terrible mistake. Help me make up for it by checking out all the resources in the show notes, take Angeles’s good advice as far as helping folks, learn bystander intervention and de-escalation techniques, hell learn self-defense, (maybe from First Defence Krav Maga? Sponsor shout out!) but you know arm yourself with knowledge so you can confidently help people in any situation. And don’t forget self-care after listening to this. A bath, a walk, move your body, drink some tea, pet a furry friend, listen to Satie or Beyonce, whatever works for you! But yeah, a heavy episode, so let’s lighten it up. What word or concept getting misused on the internet annoys you the most? Not even IPV-related. I say this fully aware, yes, of course language changes, slang comes and goes, and we’re not trying to reinforce any classism or racism or ageism, and we avoid letting our dumb personal opinions negatively affect others by keeping it to our fucking selves most of the time …but damn if it isn’t fun to vent sometimes. So what gets your goat? Tell me in the comments or message me and I’ll commiserate with you. Or, if you’re a language buff, tell me your favorite misuse or uncommon use of a word or phrase. I’ll tell ya mine - buy me a beer next time you see me and I’ll go off on this unfiltered for hours, but I personally hate insults that involve slang for body parts - other than asshole, because everyone has one. 

END:

Keep listening to hear the song “Killer” by Palehound. 

You can support this podcast by liking my youtube channel, and sharing, subscribing, and reviewing But Her Lyrics.. Wherever you get your podcasts - it’s free and it helps. To find episode transcripts, or to find out more about what I do, my book, my trainings, my patreon, head to shawnapotter.com

To learn about all things WOW, head to linktr.ee/waronwomen

Lyrics: 

With every step he takes 

An evil shakes in you 

He’s hauling ass 

Feet slapping down your avenue 

Fingers tracing the spaces 

Between the bricks lining your hall 

My weapon’s slick in my hands 

My back’s against your wall 

I wanna be the one who kills the man who hurt you darling 

Just because I feel the devil in your bed 

Don’t mean it’s you 

When you winced and turned your head

And wept, that’s when I knew 

That it’s not enough to run that dog out of this town! 

My weapon’s cold in the backseat 

Hunt that monster down. 

I wanna be the one who kills the man who hurt you darling 

Just because I feel the devil in your bed 

Don’t mean it’s