EPISODE 16 - “Second Wave Goodbye” with carrie evans
SHOW NOTES:
What’s up with the Second Wave Feminist to TERF pipeline? Should we spend our energy on them? How dangerous to trans people are they really? Host Shawna explains the War On Women song “Second Wave Goodbye” and speaks with Carrie Evans, former policy director of Equality Maryland, to discuss the real dangers of trans-exclusionary radical “feminism” and how we can better focus our energy to fight for trans rights. Sprinkle in some old Dan Savage sayings and a little science, as a treat.
The official sponsor of this episode are First Defense Krav Maga out of Herndon, VA.
Episode transcripts, important links, and ways to support Shawna and this podcast can be found at shawnapotter.com. Everything War On Women can be found at linktr.ee/waronwomen. For bonus episodes, behind the scenes content, and the chance to make special requests and get shoutouts on air, become a patron at patreon.com/shawnapotter.
Thanks to Brooks Harlan for chopping up War On Women’s song “Her?” to create the podcast theme song. Main podcast photo: Justin Borucki.
Content Warning: Transphobia, sexual violence.
Episode Links:
Ally or Accomplice?:
https://www.learningforjustice.org/magazine/ally-or-accomplice-the-language-of-activism
Action Tips for Accomplices:
Carrie’s Viral Video: https://www.queerty.com/carrie-evans-viral-defense-pride-flag-coming-home-moment-20201106
Shai Hulud Cover Song: https://nosleeprecords.bandcamp.com/track/just-cant-hate-enough-originally-by-sheer-terror
Dealing with online harassment: https://iheartmob.org/
Were we all female?: https://www.sciencealert.com/watch-we-were-once-all-female
EPISODE TRANSCRIPT
{intro music}
Shawna Potter: Welcome to But Her Lyrics...the show where we delve into the meaning and politics behind the songs of War On Women and other artists you love. I’m Shawna Potter, singer and lyricist for War On Women - and your host. On this episode we’re tackling the WOW song “Second Wave Goodbye” and it’s going to be an interesting one…legally, and I’ll get into that later, but first, this episode is sponsored by First Defense Krav Maga, hello to Nick and the whole team there. Also a huge shoutout to Recruit Melissa P. for her support. First, some basic info about the song. SWG is the 4th track on the self-titled WOW album, released on Bridge Nine Records in 2015.k and it was our first full length, We had only released an ep at that point, on Exotic Fever Records.
At its core, the song is about trans rights, but specifically it’s about an anti-trans activist from Baltimore. I have written songs about other people before. It's basically all I did in junior high and high school, but these days I do what I can to keep it vague enough that the subject doesn’t know or maybe they do figure it out, but anyone else listening to it wouldn’t know for sure. Obviously if I’m writing about Trump being a rapist, I don’t care if he finds out, but if I’m writing about something personal, the purpose is not to shame anyone or call them out, make them feel bad, or pretend that I’m 100% right, because I’m not. it’s a way for me to process things that happen in my life. Also, they’re just songs, so there are factual references in there, but also, like poems, sometimes you finagle things so that it rhymes or concludes in some way, and sometimes this fictionalized lyrical version acts as a standin for a type of person, and it’s my fun, creative task to flesh out the rest of the song. In this case, I’ve written about how some second wave feminists have trans-exclusionary tendencies. So you know, “a bitch that seeks to divide”…whereas I’d rather be the “kinda bitch that seeks to unite.” [lyric reference] OK for the record, I’m not a fan of gendered insults, and I explained once in an interview with Bitch magazine that by calling us both a bitch, me and this TERF, it was like a fun way to cancel the insult out, to affirm it wasn’t about that, and for anyone that likes to self-identify as a bitch, I’m saying use those bitchy powers for good, you don’t have to use them for bullying already oppressed people.
Speaking of gendered language, in the years that we’ve been playing this song, I’ve only called this person out by name at a show once. Guess I was feeling really bold that night. But what I have said much more often is “this song is about a transphobic asshole - she sucks but I don’t have to use gendered language to insult her. She’s just a fucking asshole.” More than just being a bully towards trans people and their allies, she’s also litigious. While planning this episode I was not sure how to talk about this song without getting sued. Luckily for me, my guest is Carrie Evans, who has an extensive resume, but has worked for the National Gay and Lesbian Task Force, the Human Rights Campaign, eventually leading Equality Maryland (the state’s LGBTQ civil rights organization) when the General Assembly passed The Civil Marriage Protection Act and the Fairness for All Marylanders Act, which prohibits discrimination against transgender Marylanders. So she was not only living in Baltimore when this song was written, and had her own run ins with you know who, but she’s also a lawyer! So I will make her listen to this entire episode before I release it in order to keep myself out of court. No, for real, I did delete a section of our interview that talks about some specific things that this person has done to bully, harass, and harm trans people, and to be safe I’m just gonna share it on my Patreon. So if you want the dirt, sign up today to access bonus episodes. Speaking of…
[MUSIC]
Got a question, which is one of the benefits of becoming a patron, ask a question, get a shoutout on air, and this one is from Meathead Byron: how did you connect with Matt Fox/Shai Hulud for Just Can’t Hate Enough cover?
Just to catch everyone up, There’s a band that has been around forever called Shai Hulud, and Matt Fox is the main songwriter. The first time wow went to Europe, we were opening for Propagandhi and SH. We spent 3 weeks on that tour, getting to know everyone, and shortly after the tour Matt just texted me and said “hey you wanna sing on this cover of a sheer terror song?” and I said of course. And it was released in December of 2015. I had never heard the original before I was asked, and I couldn’t sing it now off the top of my head, but I remember feeling challenged to add my flavor to a traditionally-masculine sounding song, like I love the idea of adding my voice to things like that and trying to redefine what can be considered tough, by just adding more options. Like this (makes fake tough sound)
[interview - please ignore all time codes and get in touch about any errors]
Shawna Potter
Carrie Evans thank you so much for joining me on the podcast. Please introduce yourself to everyone.
00:13.52
Carrie Evans
ah Carrie Evans um ah former baltimorean lived there for over a decade I still consider it my chosen home and I was. Executive director of Equality Maryland ten years ago almost to the days when we passed the marriage equality bill out of the legislature and then went on to defend it at the ballot in November so that was amazing and I stuck around with the organization to fix a wrong which was when the anti-discrimination law in Maryland was passed with sexual orientation gender identity and expression was removed so I stuck around and said I need to do this before I leave the organization. And in 2014 we were able to do that and stop the opponents from getting enough signatures to petition it to ballot. So I felt like I could do a mic drop then and left the organization.
01:14.55
Shawna Potter
Ah, yeah, because at the time this song was written. This was you know, almost ten years ago that's when all this stuff is going on. You are working for equality Maryland um, and that's when we met I I don't know exactly where
01:33.00
Carrie Evans
I remember I remember yes because you ah were one of our musical acts for one of our events. Um I believe like we had several but I remember that you were 1 of them and I'm like oh my god these.
01:43.61
Shawna Potter
Oh yeah.
01:52.85
Carrie Evans
Ladies kickass here I love it. Um, and so and then you know you and um, you know a lot of your circle like became involved and helped us you know, um, win equality in Maryland but yeah I remember you were you were kickass. You know badass. Band women I'm just thought I've always wanted to be like in a band I'm not a musician I can appreciate musicians though. So much. Um, and so I was just like these badass women. So so that's where we met.
02:22.64
Shawna Potter
ah well I'm ah well yeah I'm happy to be interviewing you because 1 you are a badass. Um, also youre a lawyer who can help me to not get sued as I talk about ah who this song is about um and and yeah, back then I was. Ah, you know running the Baltimore chapter of hollaback I was heavily involved in the transgender response team and I was just really more than I am now I was on the pulse of like what can we do to make sure that trans and gender nonconforming folks in Baltimore and Maryland. Can live their full lives and aren't discriminated against and however I could help at that time like I was there I was I was ready. so um so I say all that because this song is about a particular person.
03:08.23
Carrie Evans
Yep.
03:20.58
Shawna Potter
Um, a well-known Baltimore -based t.e.r.f. um, and that matters to me because fuck you if you are a t.e.r.f.. Um, so maybe we should start at the beginning. Can you explain. Um, the second second feminist to trans exclusionary radical feminist pipeline why why do we see this connection or even explain the buzzwords that I just used just to make sure everyone is on the same page as us as we talk about this.
03:50.37
Carrie Evans
Sure. So ah, when you think of feminism as divided, especially sort of academic theoretical feminism is sort of divided into waves the second wave feminist. You know so late sixty seventy s eighty s um you know Germaine Greer Mary Daly Janice Raymond Andrea dwarkin although I do not believe Andrea dwarkin rest her soul would identify as a t.e.r.f.. Um, you know these were sort of the theoretical feminists who wrote about.... reading them is really frustrating because on the 1 hand you know they really define sex as you know, binary and but then you know, but we know then like the inequality of women is based on the social construction of gender. Which is nothing to do with with your bio sex. Um so a lot of non-academic women's students. You know, baby feminists. You know, really latched onto these these folks who were talking about this dichotomous version of. Sex it being immutable um and sort of then you know that dovetailed with the rise of the queer movement and ah, you know the queer movement was very LG specific and then you know brought you know.
05:26.86
Carrie Evans
Bi folks in and then eventually begrudgingly Trans folks and so there is a rise in a movement for trans equality and so these these t.e.r.f.s these so t.e.r.f. is a term that stands for Trans exclusionary. Ah, radical feminists. These are "feminists" and I put feminists in quotes because I do not believe they're feminists I do not believe they're radical feminists. Um, and they work actively to put forth a view that.Trans women are not real women. Trans men are not real men. They're just lesbians gone astray um, and then not only put forth that viewpoint but then actively work against those of us who are working for women's equality. And that women's equality whether it's in the equal rights amendment or other forms of you know gender protections includes gender and non-binary folks trans women the whole spectrum of people. We are not and we are not an exclusionary club that is how I look at it the more people we can help protect from sex based discrimination the better so that in a nutshell is is second generation and and t.e.r.f..
06:47.30
Shawna Potter
And how. Yeah, now. How common is it really I don't want to give the impression that all second wave feminists are transphobic but there is an undeniable link that I don't see in other waves of feminism. Do you agree.
07:06.40
Carrie Evans
Yeah, like you know if you look at the identified t.e.r.f.s like none of them are 20 years old they're not even thirty years old our our new our new wave or our new way of being feminists. Just doesn't have a place for that kind of exclusion and discrimination and so I've never met a young a young feminist male or female who even understands why you would want to work to be rigid about gender and sex and then. Go beyond that and work actively to oppress and deny the existence and reality of these people.
07:50.73
Shawna Potter
I'm thinking about the lyric at the end of the song "lash out sit in" and how it's just kind of playing on the idea that like a sit-in was a really common form of protesting ah back then and how the idea of needing ah a women's only space where you can be yourself say things that you can't say are on men where you could you know? raise. Everyone's consciousness and and and find solidarity and like work together to better your position in society and. But how that can like get twisted into excluding Trans people and and bullying Trans women online and off
08:40.55
Carrie Evans
Well I think I think ah you know a really good example of this is what happened with the Michigan women's folk festival right? for for many years that was um, ah a feminist safe space. You know self-identify feminists would go and have that space.
08:47.25
Shawna Potter
Yes.
08:59.89
Carrie Evans
And um, the festival really got pressure to allow trans women and gender nonconforming women to come and so these separate spaces were were created and the you know t.e.r.f.s. You know, didn't that wasn't good enough and you know started boycotting and it really you know took like if you've ever been to the Michigan women's festival like it's not like you're in a room walked in with every other woman right? like you know it's just like when anybody you're out and about. You sort of tend to congregate around the people you're with right like that. You know you feel connected with and safe that doesn't mean that people on the other end of the bar I think are assholes and you know I don't want to be with I just like these are my people kind of thing and so it was so strange that at this huge festival where.
You know, Um, the Trans women were sort of secluded and on their own and you know that that still wasn't even good enough, right? Nobody was forcing you to like go sleep in their tents or you know even interact with them. They were just there in in the same physical. Spaces you which was a huge physical space and so it's like outdoor yeah like it was just it was bizarre. Um and it really to me demonstrated that it really isn't about like proximity. It is just really the mere existence of Trans women.
Just it rocks their world like they cannot incorporate that into their way of thinking about gender and sex and not only that but that they take it the the crox always for me is they take it past that to like actively working to deny these people. Quality and it's just like it is 1 thing to say I don't get it. You know we have people struggling right to understand you know and they're like right? But yeah, like yeah.
10:59.32
Shawna Potter
Right? right? I don't get it so I'm not going to go to the festival like whatever live and let live but to actively try to harm people like that's what this song is about and that's what I witnessed. In Baltimore at the time a couple times there you know couple meetings that I went to a couple activist things. There would be someone there that was just resistant to the existence of trans women and everyone had to kind of shut them down or be like look if you don't want to be involved in this event then don't.
11:32.30
Carrie Evans
Right.
21:38.70
Shawna Potter
So it seems like t.e.r.f.s are basically they're they're really concerned about the idea that men are putting on dresses. To come into women only spaces and rape everybody um and trans men are just super confused and suffering from internalized sexism and and and that it all comes down to like the the tragedy that is the erasure of Lesbian culture um is any of that actually happening like are the number of Lesbians diminishing over time is that a thing that anyone should actually worry about.
22:27.34
Carrie Evans
Well going back to the you know the the sexual violence stuff I mean this was the number 1 argument against um, ah equality Maryland and any other person working for trans equality and antidiscrimination was this boogie man you know of. Men dressing in dresses and going and raping women in locker rooms and changing things and yet none none of them could ever put forth one like real case that that happened and I have this fantasy that we. Go back to all of those people who made those arguments about you know whether it was against marriage equality like these you know oh and you're going to want to marry a tree and marry your brother and then trans stuff all this stuff was going to happen and literally be like okay, it's been 10 years tell me what what those things have happened.
23:13.29
Shawna Potter
Ah, right? What about a goat. Yeah, what do you think? yeah.
23:22.44
Carrie Evans
And like holding them accountable for throwing that out there. You know and nothing ever materialized and you know they grab onto like 1 or 2 cases and if there are cases that men do that They're not usually Trans women. They're cisgender men. Who are fucking sexual predators right? and will do what they need to do to harm and rape women right? and you know like.
23:47.60
Shawna Potter
Yeah, why would men need to throw on a dress to do that. They're doing it all the time anyway.
23:52.90
Carrie Evans
Right? So It's just you know it's It's infuriating because you know then a few people will latch onto that and be like oh yeah and it's like no like let's no, That's not true. And it's so hard to argue against the Boogeyman. You know that's hiding behind the corner. Um, you know and it was so frustrating as you know an activist and lobbying with the legislature like how all I can tell you is no this isn't going to lead. There's nothing in this law.
24:09.96
Shawna Potter
Right.
24:26.97
Carrie Evans
Or you know judicial interpretation that is going to mean I can marry a goat you know like there's nothing and there's nothing that is going to mean you know? ah. Ah, Trans women you know are given free permission to go and harm like if Trans women commit a crime they will be Treated. You know like the you know the defendants they are right? just like the rest of us would be
24:43.10
Shawna Potter
Yeah, yeah.
24:59.10
Carrie Evans
I get it as a Lesbian I get that we sometimes feel erased and we sometimes feel like um, we don't have the the respect or place we want but that is not.
Because of Trans people that is because of misogyny and that is a misogyny of gay men of you know cisgender. You know, um, you know men It's just it's not because of Trans women if I feel like my Lesbian voice or my Lesbian culture is being diminished. It is not because of Trans folks and ah to equate that is is false and I think you know just it the energy that the t.e.r.f.s use to fight transgender equality would be used to really fight. The the enemy which is misogyny and patriarchy dam like you know like get that energy behind the equal rights amendment for crying out loud. You know
26:00.47
Shawna Potter
Um, yeah, we might be unstoppable and because they do what they do spend so much time and energy like honestly everything I was like reading to refresh my memory of like the kinds of things that that are happening with with t.e.r.f.s What t.e.r.f.s do I just kept thinking get a life.
Get a life. Why do you care? Why are you doing this like why don't you start gardening or get like get some Hobby go roller skating. It's maddening and especially because statistically like Trans women are are at such a higher risk disproportionately for violence. Ah. Black Trans women especially than almost any other group right? and so like to ignore that it just seems willfully ignorant at best but hateful and violent.
26:47.57
Carrie Evans
And to do and you know and a lot of some of these that well the one you know that we're talking about you know claims to be anti-racist right? and it's like you know you're not right because in Baltimore you know? ah.
The horror that are you know women of color who are Trans experience at all levels whether they're on the streets or whether... is is it's and the intersection with their their race and racism and systemic racism with their gender identity expression.
27:14.00
Shawna Potter
Yeah.
27:24.51
Carrie Evans
You know you can't untangle those 2 and you can't be anti-racist and like anti-tran like it just ah like if I was a black trans woman I'd be like screw you like you and like like just get away from me. You're not anti-racist right.
27:38.97
Shawna Potter
Yeah, ah we don't need you.
27:43.68
Carrie Evans
Like you know they have you know the whole system of racism you know, pouring down on them and then you know the the transphobia you know and sexism and it's like yeah if you're you really want to work and stand and be my ally you have to be both.
27:58.92
Shawna Potter
Yeah, yeah, so something that I have noticed with t.e.r.f.s and that drives me nuts is that on paper sometimes I cannot distinguish between them and like hardcore right? wingers. what is that connection all about and and how is that a great risk to Trans people.
29:10.20
Carrie Evans
So should be no surprise that you know folks like heritage foundation and other right wing organizations. Do not support. You know trans equality so they're a natural ally particular and when it comes to um court cases. So you know, 2 cases you know in recent history. Um, ah, Gavin Grim who is a young trans man in Northern Virginia I believe who wanted to be able to access the appropriate bathroom at his school. Um, yeah, the case went to the supreme court. Um, kicked it back down to the lower courts which have always sided with Gavin. But that case you know the women's liberation front which is also known as wolf is a t.e.r.f. organization. They filed an amicus in that arguing that Gavin should not be allowed to use the appropriate bathroom.
30:08.71
Shawna Potter
What's an am Ambicus?
30:08.87
Carrie Evans
And then a amicus. Um, it's called friend of the court brief. So those are um so whenever there's like ah a case, an appellate case. Um the parties get the parties themselves. So Gavin I think was represented by the aclu in that case and probably the school district each got to file a formal brief. And then the court will allow friends of the court Briefs so these are interested parties that have something to say but they're not a party to the litigation.
30:37.82
Shawna Potter
Huh.
30:41.44
Carrie Evans
In in those cases you know, probably you know the human rights campaign filed a supportive brief and lambda legal amicus briefs so you get sometimes hundreds of Amicus Briefs in these cases where you know ah people who have something to say about it.
30:46.21
Shawna Potter
Okay.
31:01.12
Carrie Evans
You know and it's not It's not just like me writing it right? It has to be done legally you know you hire a law firm to do it kind of thing and the courts can can look at those as well as they're making their decisions. They look at the actual legal arguments that are made by the parties. But then we'll turn to the Amicus Briefs you know to to fill out the picture sometimes a bit more so the women's liberation front has you know, ah filed Amicus Briefs and you can only imagine in the the trans cases like what who their their their partners were you know. People like heritage foundation like the hard core folks working against queer equality and then again in the case where the trans woman was working at a funeral home and came out to her employer who had a dress codes that the men working there had to wear. I think a suit ah pants and a tie and women had to wear a dress so you know she said you know I'm trans and I'll be wearing a dress and they said yeah no, you won't and fired her and um, that case went up to the supreme court and here we have again the wolf filing at amicus saying that this should not be the allowed and thankfully the supreme court with you know, even chief Roberts himself siding with the majority and 6 three said no like it is violating title 7 of the civil rights act. Whether it is sex discrimination that includes sexual orientation and gender identity and she should not have lost her job because of that. So yeah, like who they're partnering with is dangerous is is real because these are again. Again, these terfs call themselves feminists and the organizations that they're in sort of partnership with are like completely anti-choice anti anti everything women's equality works for you know these are organizations that don't even think women should be in the workforce.
33:06.89
Shawna Potter
Right? They're no friend to Lesbians either right.
33:08.86
Carrie Evans
You know? yeah and it's just crazy. There's this one thing that they connect on and it you know it should be shameful for the t.e.r.f.s you know, but it's not and they yeah they just um, you know, continually you know we find them.
You know as guest speakers at the heritage foundation. You know, gatherings and things like that and of course then you know the conservatives are it's like live a black friend well look. We have these Lesbian friends and it's like oh my God No this is not how it works. But yeah, so it's it's very troubling. Thankfully you know even with.
Conservative courts they are still. You know, upholding um, federal law to be inclusive of ah sexual orientation and gender identity. So I mean I think that pisses the t.e.r.f.s off as well. Um, you know that you know it's sort of like. Their last gasp right sort of like you know I think the t.e.r.f.s when you look at their age demographic. You know they're sort of they're dinosaurs. They're on their way out because as we've talked about before the young young feminists.
34:28.62
Shawna Potter
Ah, yeah.
34:44.65
Carrie Evans
Ah, don't have any place for this like it is just like I don't even get it I'm not even gonna try and get it. You know this we are including everyone and you know oppression is oppression is oppression.
34:56.96
Shawna Potter
Yeah, and it seems like it's it's as okay to say fuck t.e.r.f.s as it is to say fuck nazis you know at least like on Twitter like it's everyone's like yep we can all agree on that fuck um punch him in the face. Whatever um, so if that's the case.
And you know they're outnumbered and they're They're not growing their numbers and you know the the bend towards Justice is leaving them behind what should we be on the lookout for um, how dangerous are they to us now. As far as I understand it. It seems like the the equality of Trans people is being legislated against actively the last year or so like things are maybe getting worse for gender nonconforming people. Um. So what? what should as allies as people who care about this issue at All. What should we be on the lookout for what what can we do.
35:57.89
Carrie Evans
I mean I think it's with every equality issue right? You you have to spend your energy on the people whose hearts and minds you can change um and dispose of everyone else like you literally don't Um, we don't time for that right? So you know.
36:12.24
Shawna Potter
So no time for t.e.r.f.s ignore them.
36:15.75
Carrie Evans
Yeah I mean you know we had to do that in the legislature where there'd be some like hardcore republicans like Neil Parrot or something like well how come you don't come talk to me and I'm like dude like you're you're gone like you. Ah you have told us right your heart and mind is not open to changing why would I you know expend one ounce of
36:31.10
Shawna Potter
Waste my fucking time.
36:35.39
Carrie Evans
You know my resources on you I'm going to work on the people who are struggling to get to that place and who did right? and that's where we have to focus on right because you know some of the people who are behind the Anti-trans you know bills in the states really are misguided confused like they really can be gotten to.
Um, you know some are hardcore Neil Parrotts and you know are um, you know they're never going to change but some are and you know and t.e.r.f.s are t.e.r.f.s right? They're not They're not interested in. You know a conversation or dialogue and so. But you know time is too short. Equality is too important.
You know it really is focusing on like building a movement that is you know, inclusive and brings everybody in and really like it. It. It really is like fuel to the fire right? The t.e.r.f.s. Like live and die on people engaging with them in social media and so do the racists and so you know all of the people who are you know so powerful behind that keyboard right.
38:06.57
Shawna Potter
Um, yeah.
38:15.70
Carrie Evans
They they just that is how they engage and stuff and to withdraw from that is huge because then what they're in the echo Chamber There's nobody there and it's like nobody's listening to you. Nobody's engaged and it's tempting I know but you know it's just again, we have to move on and focus on the hearts and minds that we can change and.Help us on the move to you know equality for you know, ah not just Trans folks but you know our racial minorities and everybody else.
38:43.30
Shawna Potter
Yeah, um, what do you want to promote right now. What are you working on what's going on.
38:48.80
Carrie Evans
Now. Ah, nothing real. Oh you know I'm sitting here in city council in North Dakota fun times. Um, no working on actually antidiscrimination ordinance for the city. So we've become the first city in North Dakota. Um, just blowing it up out here man
39:03.67
Shawna Potter
Awesome I Love it. thank you so much for being on the podcast I really appreciate it. Carrie it's been lovely to talk to you.
46:26.22
Carrie Evans
No I'm so glad you're doing this and you're still talking you know and working for trans equality I mean I think you know it's like marriage equality where people think we've made strides. So therefore we're done and we're not we still have homophobia even though Maryland has been.
Baltimore particularly has been incredible. Um, with ah transgender antidiscrimination and all of our mayors at least the times I lived there were absolutely committed to trans equality that doesn't mean it. You know translates into equality.
47:03.33
Shawna Potter
yeah.
47:04.64
Carrie Evans
Um, you know I'm thankful that we have leaders and allies that continue to keep their foot on the gas but we can't let up particularly for our trans women of color that are so in a city like Baltimore impacted not just by. You know the the transphobia and the t.e.r.f.s.
But the systemic racism that the city you know grapples with and and works you know to to ameliorate but it's still there and just the impact it has on people's lives is huge.
47:34.81
Shawna Potter
Yeah, so let's keep fucking fighting how about that.
47:40.52
Carrie Evans
That's you got it. It's a deal.
47:48.74
Shawna Potter
all right? Thank you so much Carrie.
Like I said, if you wanna hear a little more dirt about the terf this song is about, join my patreon and for just $5/month you’ll have access to bonus episodes. In this upcoming bonus ep I also talk to Carrie about her recent viral video. I’ll put a link in the show notes, but you have to watch her as a city council member defend LGBTQIA+ equality at a city council meeting, as the first openly lesbian elected offcial in all of North Dakota.
One other thing about the lyrics to this song. “Feel your feelings, use your words” I was listening to a lot of the Dan Savage podcast at the time, so that explains that. “We all want a safer space, you’re gonna have to fucking roll with it” - I had only recently started training venues for the Safer Space Program in Baltimore so of course I was very into this concept. Finally, I want to explain the chorus of this song. “Hey! Hey! We’re all woman” We are all woman. There’s two meanings here. One, anyone that is a woman should be able to say they are “all woman,” regardless of chromosomes or body parts they have. Two, what I was thinking about when writing this simple little catchy line, was the fact that all human beings start out as female. Now I’m not a scientist, and there are some disagreements about this out there, but that idea, that physically and phenotypically speaking, as a clump of cells just beginning to divide and multiply, we are all the same. And the differences we do have, are not important enough to warrant discrimination and oppression. We should all be on the same team fighting against that, because that’s how we all started.
[end music]
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SECOND WAVE GOODBYE
You’re the kinda bitch that seeks to divide
Yeah, but I’m the kinda bitch that seeks to unite
You can’t see the allies for the trees
You wanna get every man on his knees
Hey, I’m here;
A shoulder to cry on
We’re all so proud of you for putting yourself first
You can’t take a class on class
Your doctorate don’t mean shit
We all want a safer space
You’re gonna have to fucking roll with it
Hey! Hey! We’re all, we’re all woman
You would do well to remember just how fluid is gender
You’re a relic of the second wave, and we’ve waved goodbye
Feel your feelings. Use your words. Have you been oppressed too?
Don’t worry, I’m here for you
Hey! Hey! We’re all, we’re all woman
If you’re gonna cry then I wanna be there
If you’re gonna leave then I wanna be here
If you’re gonna stay then I’m gonna be here
The seed, when it feeds, with its teeth, end the scene
Lash Out! Sit In!
Hey! Hey! We’re all, we’re all woman