SHOW NOTES:

It’s Shawna Summer! Shawna chats with Abbey Carbonneau of the org Book More Women

“Waterfalls” by TLC, needing numbers and visuals, the power to make headliners, admiration for people that work at festivals, systems thinking and points of leverage (what?), including artists about the things that affect them, what’s a non-corporate phrase for “on the ground”? Why has gender equity in live music plateaued? Balancing data and real people’s stories, and basic photoshop skills (in the Patreon-exclusive Bonus Moment!)

FFO: non-profit nerdery, women in music, data, cameo’s from Rosie.

SHOW LINKS:

Book More Women - bookmorewomen.com

Insta @bookmorewomen 

Measured: the Book More Women podcast - https://open.spotify.com/show/1CEnTkDGlvqhnpAvXICk1k

SHAWNA’S LINKS

shawnapotter.com

NEW WAR ON WOMEN ALBUM: https://smartpunk.com/collections/war-on-women

The new Safer Spaces: Online Course: https://shawnapotter.com/safer-spaces-course

Making Spaces Safer book: https://www.akpress.org/making-spaces-safer-book.html

Request fun video messages: https://www.cameo.com/shawnapotterwow

All things War On Women: linktr.ee/waronwomen 

https://www.youtube.com/@shawnapotter

SHOW SCRIPT:

Welcome to But Her Lyrics...the show where we delve into the political lyrics of songs I like, songs I wrote, or topics that I think should be a song. I’m Shawna Potter, singer and lyricist for War On Women - and your host. This is kind of a special episode, an episode highlighting someone behind the scenes in the music world. Someone that saw a problem with gender   in festival lineups and thought: we can do better.

So with hard data and easy to understand graphics, the insta account Book More Women was born. In my chat with founder Abbey Carbonneau today, we talk about how her frustration as a music fan turned into a viral insta account and how it’s now transitioning into a non-profit that can help provide resources and tools for those willing to change the status quo by booking more women.

PATREON:

The best way to support me and my work (whether that’s my punk band War On Women or as an Intimacy Coordinator) is to sign up for my Patreon, at patreon.com/shawnapotter. Right now I have a patron-exclusive chat with a UK based researcher on how punk scenes create safer spaces, some interesting findings at least to me! But also some BTS pics of the last WOW tour, bonus podcast moments, all kinds of stuff. And you can make requests! I have a busy summer coming up with film projects, touring, we’re going back to Europe in August, and playing Fest again this October and, oh, idk, A NEW FUCKING ALBUM CALLED TIME UNDER TENSION! Out now on Smartpunk Records! So it’s a big ol Shawna summer, super excited to share some of that with you on patreon. 

But enough about me….

[INTERVIEW TIME]

Okay, Abby Carbono, thank you so much for joining me on But Her Lyrics. Please introduce yourself to everyone.

2:34

2 minutes, 34 seconds

Yeah, thank you for having me. So so happy to be here uh talking with you and uh so my name is Abby Carbono. Uh I'm the founder and executive director of

2:43

2 minutes, 43 seconds

book women uh which started as a solo uh social media project essentially to

2:50

2 minutes, 50 seconds

raise awareness of the gender disparity in specifically at music festivals uh through visuals and data and is now as

2:59

2 minutes, 59 seconds

as of last year um a a full organization uh and yeah we're currently a fiscally

3:07

3 minutes, 7 seconds

sponsored organization a project of Fractured Atlas uh as we pursue our own 501c3 status and uh you know our mission

3:15

3 minutes, 15 seconds

is continuing on from that foundation that we've built and then you know expanding really to to just challenge

3:23

3 minutes, 23 seconds

the status quo as it is in music industry and elevate underrepresented voices and uh yeah change the system.

3:32

3 minutes, 32 seconds

No big deal.

3:33

3 minutes, 33 seconds

Yeah. Yeah. It's really the mission is really big. the vision's really big, but uh we have a really passionate team and um you know just for myself I I started

3:42

3 minutes, 42 seconds

as a as a fan just started this like I said as a as a social media thing uh literally as a fan because I was

3:49

3 minutes, 49 seconds

disappointed by a festival lineup got in an argument about it online and was like what if I just start chugging these

3:57

3 minutes, 57 seconds

edited posters out and and show that it's not just one uh not just one festival not just one genre not just one

4:05

4 minutes, 5 seconds

you know company. Um yeah, and uh uh we'll get more into that your question.

4:11

4 minutes, 11 seconds

Yeah, I know you're giving me you're giving me like the the the elevator pitch of your or I'm already in. I've already bought in. I'm asking about you, Abby. Let's let's take a step back.

4:21

4 minutes, 21 seconds

Abby, why don't you tell me about your relationship to music? When did you get into it? Um what kind of music do you like? Have you ever played yourself?

4:31

4 minutes, 31 seconds

Tell me about that.

4:33

4 minutes, 33 seconds

Yeah. Yeah. So I mean if I go back if we really go back the first sort of like yeah the first the first moment that I

4:40

4 minutes, 40 seconds

have in my mind of really being present of like oh like the music that's happening was driving with my family and

4:47

4 minutes, 47 seconds

you know I have two older sisters who are seven and nine years older than me so their tastes obviously were um you know much different and and sort of

4:55

4 minutes, 55 seconds

influenced me and and hearing Waterfalls by TLC is something that really sticks out in my head in this in this drive and

5:04

5 minutes, 4 seconds

it was probably on a cassette and they were probably playing it over and over.

5:07

5 minutes, 7 seconds

But that's like one of these like foundational honestly when I look back I think that probably like I said like that they're you know them being older

5:15

5 minutes, 15 seconds

sort of shifted my you know musical influence and and um really from as a as

5:21

5 minutes, 21 seconds

a kid I wasn't super like you know interested. that it was mostly just like listening with my to like oldies radio

5:30

5 minutes, 30 seconds

with my parents in the car. And I think maybe that also was like a big thing like just Fleetwood Mac and Bruce

5:36

5 minutes, 36 seconds

Springsteen and like Stevie Wonder just you know Carol King ABBA like and and uh

5:45

5 minutes, 45 seconds

and then eventually you know I found my way through like InSync and then like as I was a pre-teen it was like started

5:53

5 minutes, 53 seconds

like where I first you know was like really like okay I like you know and it's always like what what your friends are listening to or whatever but it was

6:01

6 minutes, 1 second

like Simple Plan and Yellow Card and and then I finally made my way to Paramore which I think was a huge moment right uh for me and that was in 2005.

6:11

6 minutes, 11 seconds

I went with my friends to see Simple Plan and Paramore was like the first opener of four bands and like looking

6:19

6 minutes, 19 seconds

back that had to be a huge moment just to like see you know Haley Williams who was only a couple years older than me at the you

6:27

6 minutes, 27 seconds

know and and and up on that stage and um with you know bands that I had already you know sort of made into these big you

6:36

6 minutes, 36 seconds

know almost semi-heroes and yeah just from there I I you uh eventually found my way to like sort

6:43

6 minutes, 43 seconds

of my home, my comfort zone in like Americana and um so that's that's where I that's where I mostly live. But um

6:51

6 minutes, 51 seconds

Book Woman has actually been really awesome to like branch out and listen to other stuff. Um it's been like a huge huge thing for me. But uh I did

7:01

7 minutes, 1 second

sort of teach myself guitar as like uh during high school and college, but um you know never never actually had any

7:10

7 minutes, 10 seconds

professional um role in music really. Uh went to school for biology and then ended up

7:18

7 minutes, 18 seconds

working in chemistry for about 10 years and sort of just dug my way dug a little back hole into the music industry. you

7:26

7 minutes, 26 seconds

know, it's always something I've really cared about, but yeah. So, you feel more like a fan, um, an audience member, an enjoyer of music.

7:34

7 minutes, 34 seconds

And so, tell me about this moment where like you just got so pissed off and thought,

7:42

7 minutes, 42 seconds

well, here's something I can do about it. Yeah, that's Yeah, that's that's exactly like how I thought about it, too, is like, here's something maybe I

7:51

7 minutes, 51 seconds

can do about it. Um it was you know I had gone to a festival with my sister the year before uh and the lineup had

7:59

7 minutes, 59 seconds

been announced for that following year and I was like this is this isn't for me which is fine you know

8:06

8 minutes, 6 seconds

uh but but uh then I sort of realized that it why it wasn't for me and I had to count you had to count 21 artists

8:14

8 minutes, 14 seconds

down to get to the second woman. So, Sizzle was sort of in the mix and there you had to, this was in 20 2018, you had to count down 21 artists to get to the

8:23

8 minutes, 23 seconds

second woman on this lineup. And that's when I I sort of just pointed it out on their uh like lineup announce on Twitter and I was like, you know, just pointing

8:32

8 minutes, 32 seconds

out the numbers and just said, "Do better." That's all I said. And there onslaught of just comments uh from, you

8:40

8 minutes, 40 seconds

know, fans of the festival presumably, I think, was was most of it. um it just being, you know, the the large the the

8:47

8 minutes, 47 seconds

most like com the most the most common response was like who cares or you know it doesn't matter like and but then there were a few that were

8:56

8 minutes, 56 seconds

a little honestly weirdly violent and disturbing and then there was like a couple that really wanted to like get in

9:03

9 minutes, 3 seconds

the weeds and that's sort of where I started started like you know having the conversation with these people and I'm like eventually do the thing where I erase the men and the poster I'm like

9:12

9 minutes, 12 seconds

like does this help you ever see how bad this is and I didn't invent the concept right there I think you know the year before there had been a really viral one

9:20

9 minutes, 20 seconds

with running in leads festivals and um that was like a big moment in the UK I think uh and so I didn't like invent the

9:28

9 minutes, 28 seconds

concept but you know my thought after that argument was like you know maybe you know I have this you

9:35

9 minutes, 35 seconds

know general just being a millennial social media online savvy and you know I can do basic Photoshop or

9:44

9 minutes, 44 seconds

you know and and maybe just putting these posters out over and over again and like I like I had said just just

9:52

9 minutes, 52 seconds

showing that it's not one genre it's not one festival it's not one you know company uh any it's not one region it's it's really widespread and

10:01

10 minutes, 1 second

um yeah just took the sort of the passion that I had where honestly it was a little um

10:09

10 minutes, 9 seconds

a little like you know for doing it for myself like I want to see these artists that I listen to on festivals

10:18

10 minutes, 18 seconds

and then yeah so just like bringing that passion as a fan with these little things that I had and in the idea that I

10:24

10 minutes, 24 seconds

had and just it just kept going. So, it makes sense to me that, you know, a lot of people would comment like, "Who

10:31

10 minutes, 31 seconds

cares? Get out of here." And people would be pissed and and so, but I'm wondering what, as you've been doing

10:39

10 minutes, 39 seconds

this over the years, what have been some of the most surprising responses from festivals themselves, fans, audience

10:48

10 minutes, 48 seconds

members? Like, what what do you do not expect, good or bad, from from doing this over and over again? I think what

10:55

10 minutes, 55 seconds

has stuck out to me the most, or maybe it's just been what I've been trying to hold on to the most, is how artists have

11:03

11 minutes, 3 seconds

responded to this and said specifically that it's given them sort of a a tool to use that it was it's

11:12

11 minutes, 12 seconds

been their experience their entire career and but they haven't been able to really put have the number and having the numbers and having the visual behind

11:21

11 minutes, 21 seconds

it and being able to actually use that to to to show their experience that

11:28

11 minutes, 28 seconds

they've been fighting against all this stuff for so long. Um, and have that as a tool has been really probably what's kept me going the most.

11:38

11 minutes, 38 seconds

Um, yeah, just knowing be, you know, like I said, as starting as a fan a little, you know, always wanted to make sure that

11:45

11 minutes, 45 seconds

I'm really, you know, you can have unintended consequences, right? you can have um you know good intentions but not

11:53

11 minutes, 53 seconds

necessarily desired outcomes and and so getting you know getting the response from artists being like like being so supportive uh

12:02

12 minutes, 2 seconds

has been probably what's kept me going the most um and the response from you know the industry from festivals has

12:09

12 minutes, 9 seconds

been you know mixed at times but I think over over time has has shifted um a lot more and I think the the the most common

12:18

12 minutes, 18 seconds

thing from, you know, organizers, talent buyers, that kind of thing has been like, well, it's not that simple, which,

12:25

12 minutes, 25 seconds

you know, I know and and I think a lot of people know, maybe, you know, maybe the general music audience doesn't know, and that's fair. Uh but so I think you

12:35

12 minutes, 35 seconds

know I get a lot of I've gotten a lot over the years and maybe less so the last few years uh but of like well you know we tried to get this artist and

12:43

12 minutes, 43 seconds

this artist and this artist but you know they weren't available they weren't touring they were you know it didn't fit in the budget and um you know I think part of where we are now is we want to

12:51

12 minutes, 51 seconds

really flesh this all out and let's let's like let's take let's explain it from that side. Let's look into every single one of these things. Okay. They

13:00

13 minutes

weren't available. Yeah, that's that's fair. You know, if you're a rock festival, there's really truly not a lot of options, you know, to be your

13:06

13 minutes, 6 seconds

headliner who's not a, you know, straight white male, honestly. And but that and that that's that's fair and

13:14

13 minutes, 14 seconds

understandable, but it's like, okay, you know, you're you're part of this system and you are sort of at the end of it, right? There's so many decisions that are made up to this point to sort of

13:23

13 minutes, 23 seconds

narrow your options in in some cases, but what you still have some power to make those

13:31

13 minutes, 31 seconds

headliners, you know, fill that undercard and and so I think digging into each one of these issues is something that we really want to do now as we're expanding this beyond just the

13:40

13 minutes, 40 seconds

festival posters and and digging awareness.

13:44

13 minutes, 44 seconds

Yeah. Yeah. Exactly. and and that's sort of what we've been um you know in in February we we publicly relaunched as an

13:52

13 minutes, 52 seconds

organization from like I said just sort of a solo project and and so that's been sort of one of our calling cards if you

14:01

14 minutes, 1 second

will just going from awareness to action and taking the data that we have um you

14:07

14 minutes, 7 seconds

know we've got all this years uh of of festival um you know gender representation

14:15

14 minutes, 15 seconds

data, hard hard numbers and and being able to take those and really put that put it to work and how do we work within

14:22

14 minutes, 22 seconds

this, you know, within the industry. Uh so we're partnering with f festivals, for example, um

14:29

14 minutes, 29 seconds

to, you know, be, you know, sort of hold themselves accountable, help them hold themselves accountable. And then outside

14:36

14 minutes, 36 seconds

of the industry as well. And uh you know if they're not going if if they're not going to you know collaborate with us

14:44

14 minutes, 44 seconds

and work on these things themselves then how can we still apply that pressure and and change the system from the outside.

14:51

14 minutes, 51 seconds

H I definitely identify with this um with my experience uh as an activist and

14:59

14 minutes, 59 seconds

organizer uh in the 2010s doing like anti- street harassment work and like starting like

15:07

15 minutes, 7 seconds

by ra just raising awareness and pissing people off by mentioning that it existed and it sucked and no one liked dealing with it. And you know, I was part of

15:16

15 minutes, 16 seconds

this lucky to be part of this huge worldwide wave of people that were like, "We're [ __ ] tired of dealing with

15:24

15 minutes, 24 seconds

street harassment. It's still harassment." Um, and but pretty quickly it moved into well-meaning people saying, "Okay, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

15:34

15 minutes, 34 seconds

It's bad. What do we do about it? Like, just tell me what to do." Like wanting to go from awareness to action, right?

15:40

15 minutes, 40 seconds

and and then that's when I came up with the safer spaces program and I started training people wrote a book and whatever whatever um because I feel like

15:49

15 minutes, 49 seconds

in for the most part people do not want to have bad

15:56

15 minutes, 56 seconds

intentions. They don't want to do bad stuff. They just want to do what's easy. Yeah. Right.

16:02

16 minutes, 2 seconds

And life is also complicated. Sometimes the band you want just isn't [ __ ] available for whatever reason. Like I

16:09

16 minutes, 9 seconds

get it. So, I have sympathy for the people that work at festivals like understanding how many ins and outs

16:18

16 minutes, 18 seconds

there are. I can't actually I don't understand. I don't understand. I have a general idea of the concept and it sounds terrible and and more power to

16:25

16 minutes, 25 seconds

you. Um, absolutely. Couldn't be me, but uh but it's like awareness is step one,

16:32

16 minutes, 32 seconds

right? And then it's uh I I admire your going to the next step of like, okay, here let me help you because I think a

16:40

16 minutes, 40 seconds

lot of people online stop at awareness and it's not even often awareness with any kind of kindness to it.

16:50

16 minutes, 50 seconds

Yeah.

16:52

16 minutes, 52 seconds

It's just the [ __ ] you do better and then like cool, I'd love to. Is there anyone that can help? No, just do

17:01

17 minutes, 1 second

it, you know? Um, so yeah, what are your what are your I'm sure that this project is a labor of love.

17:09

17 minutes, 9 seconds

Um, how long did it take before you thought I think this is actually making a difference? Uh, I should keep going or

17:17

17 minutes, 17 seconds

this could make more of a difference if only we XYZ, you know, became an or did more like what are your thoughts there?

17:24

17 minutes, 24 seconds

Yeah, I think there's been a few moments for both of those things. you know, like I said, I started this in 2018, early uh, you know, February into March, so

17:33

17 minutes, 33 seconds

it's been more than eight years now. And one of the sort of first moments was uh, I mean, I I had some artists that I had

17:40

17 minutes, 40 seconds

really admired sort of just grab onto it really quickly and and find it. Marggo Price, for example, who I'd listened to,

17:47

17 minutes, 47 seconds

uh, you know, for a long time and, um, and, you know, artists just commenting and being like tagging other people and

17:55

17 minutes, 55 seconds

be like, "Hey, hey, check this out." Uh, I feel like I must have found it with Wong Women immediately. I feel like it came up in my algorithm and I was like,

18:03

18 minutes, 3 seconds

"Fuck yes." Like I feel like I've been with it if it it found the right people really quickly and I don't know. I mean,

18:10

18 minutes, 10 seconds

it was really organic. I mean, I never, you know, I was doing this in my side in, you know, my in my spare time. Um,

18:19

18 minutes, 19 seconds

you know, working full-time and then doing this in my spare time, you know, making no money for six, seven years. uh and um heard that.

18:26

18 minutes, 26 seconds

So yeah, just get getting these artists to find it. And then there was, you know, a moment that, you know, a few months in, I guess it was probably July 2018 where

18:35

18 minutes, 35 seconds

Brandy Carile had announced her all all women headlined festival in Mexico. And

18:42

18 minutes, 42 seconds

um she actually reached out and DM'd me first and and I you know I I had listened to Brandy for for several years

18:49

18 minutes, 49 seconds

at that point and um obviously was already a very like this was sort of pre- like Grammy blow up but still like

18:58

18 minutes, 58 seconds

a very you know respected and and known figure and um you know she DM'd me

19:07

19 minutes, 7 seconds

first and I was like what like and just said like you know love is uh you know, keep going essentially.

19:15

19 minutes, 15 seconds

And so I was like, okay, well, I guess now I have to keep going.

19:20

19 minutes, 20 seconds

Yeah, that was sort of one of the first moments. And then um yeah, I think I think over time uh there's been a lot of

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19 minutes, 28 seconds

like, you know, there was you can look back and see there were like years where I there was like a year or so where I didn't really post at all and it was, you know, sort of depending on my job and just not feeling motivated by it.

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19 minutes, 39 seconds

But, you know, stuff always would happen that just brought me back and um I'm super grateful for that. And then I was laid off from my, you know, quote

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19 minutes, 48 seconds

unquote real job uh in late 2023. And that's when I was like, all right, you know, I've got, you know, nearly 20,000

19:56

19 minutes, 56 seconds

followers at that point and they're all very engaged artist, you know, industry people, especially like on like, you

20:05

20 minutes, 5 seconds

know, the beginning side of this. Um, and then fans, festival fans, you know, really, you know, just engaged people

20:12

20 minutes, 12 seconds

that cared about this issue. And I'm like, at that point, I'm like, I I don't honestly, maybe I shouldn't say this, but I don't have a huge entrepreneurial spirit.

20:24

20 minutes, 24 seconds

It can feel it can feel icky sometimes.

20:27

20 minutes, 27 seconds

You feel like you're And I I did have to get, you know, I I at that point I was like, I don't want

20:34

20 minutes, 34 seconds

to go search for a job. I don't want to go search for a real job and do that whole thing. I don't want to wake up in the morning and drive places anymore.

20:42

20 minutes, 42 seconds

And I'm like, I have this thing. I care about it. Let me see what else I can do because I know that it has got to the point where it was in, you know, it was

20:50

20 minutes, 50 seconds

in, you know, had an interview with Rolling Stone and, you know, Boston Globe and um, you know, it was being

20:58

20 minutes, 58 seconds

mentioned by huge artists. You know, I think at that point Casey Musk was following was probably one of the biggest artists. Maybe should I should I

21:07

21 minutes, 7 seconds

twin has followed the account. I think that was more reason. But um and just uh

21:14

21 minutes, 14 seconds

yeah just these like decision point of like I I'm going to go all in, you I was like, I think that this can

21:22

21 minutes, 22 seconds

be more. And and like we talked about like going from the awareness to the action and and so I just started talking with as many people I could talk to from

21:31

21 minutes, 31 seconds

all over the industry. And I don't I'm not a big networker. I do not like doing this. But I just kept jumping from

21:39

21 minutes, 39 seconds

person like you know whoever they mentioned. that was like, okay, like let me talk to them and, you know, talk to artists and everybody and and just sort of built built, you know, built this up to where it is now.

21:49

21 minutes, 49 seconds

And last year I spent, you know, a lot of the time just learning how how this could be a nonprofit and how

21:56

21 minutes, 56 seconds

um, you know, how we can work towards that, how we can actually uh, you know, put

22:04

22 minutes, 4 seconds

you know, systems was I've done so much of this like systems thinking and really diving into these like um, you know,

22:12

22 minutes, 12 seconds

feedback loops and you know how to use points of leverage in a system and obviously losing me.

22:21

22 minutes, 21 seconds

Yeah, music industry is so complex which I'm sure you you know that you know is understandable but like it's like where where can you intervene you know where

22:30

22 minutes, 30 seconds

are the best points the most valuable but as you said the most like the easiest points people actually do it.

22:38

22 minutes, 38 seconds

Yeah. if we put this thing in this little point right here, this decision point that could like what can make the biggest impact and and just really

22:46

22 minutes, 46 seconds

digging into all that and and that's sort of how and then you know combining that with talking to artists who are working artists who are you know

22:55

22 minutes, 55 seconds

have a day job or multiple jobs, have children and uh like what you know specifically

23:02

23 minutes, 2 seconds

asking a few questions of like you know what what right now is the biggest roadblock for you getting to your goals, your personal goals in

23:11

23 minutes, 11 seconds

music, what in the past has been the most helpful for you overcoming, you know, these similar roadblocks to reach

23:19

23 minutes, 19 seconds

your own personal goals in music and uh I said three, but that was basically just the two

23:28

23 minutes, 28 seconds

and and and just like uh yeah, like what what would most help you right now? and and because we want to really make sure

23:35

23 minutes, 35 seconds

that we are doing again like that, you know, good intention but unintended consequence thing and and trying to make

23:43

23 minutes, 43 seconds

sure that we're really like staying on the ground. I hate using the term ground, but I don't know a better one. I

23:50

23 minutes, 50 seconds

have not figured out a better one, but we want to be on the ground level like on the on, you know, boots on the ground as they say really.

23:58

23 minutes, 58 seconds

If you have a better term that doesn't feel like synergy and uh [ __ ] our end of day meetings and quarter three and like give us a term we can use. Okay.

24:10

24 minutes, 10 seconds

Yeah. Yeah. and and at the same time not being like, "Oh, you're on the ground level because you're an artist working, you know, a job." Like that's not like

24:19

24 minutes, 19 seconds

that's where I feel like that's not what I mean. But, you know, we I I feel like a lot of these organizations feel

24:26

24 minutes, 26 seconds

to me out of reach, you know, and I'm, you know, I've always just been a a fan.

24:31

24 minutes, 31 seconds

I, you know, I' I've, you know, have worked my whole life. I don't you know, middle class. I live in, you know, north

24:39

24 minutes, 39 seconds

northern Massachusetts. I don't I don't know if that sort of helps frame it, but you know, I I don't uh a lot of these

24:46

24 minutes, 46 seconds

things feel out of reach. Like big, you know, corporate sponsors and and gallas, like that's not our vibe.

24:53

24 minutes, 53 seconds

Like we really want to be like in tune with like what will really help. And I know I'm getting a little off topic. I think I'm trying to get around back to the point here.

25:03

25 minutes, 3 seconds

and combining that like systemic change thought of like where do we best intervene? How can we best apply what we have?

25:11

25 minutes, 11 seconds

Yeah.

25:12

25 minutes, 12 seconds

And also keep that artist perspective that into like, you know, young people getting into the industry, you know,

25:20

25 minutes, 20 seconds

whether it's on the obvious store or the industry side.

25:23

25 minutes, 23 seconds

And and to sort of take another off topic thing, but like the fact that we have to call

25:31

25 minutes, 31 seconds

it the industry, right? like the fact that it even is a music industry. I tried I wish that we could tear that all down, but you know, I figure let's Yeah.

25:39

25 minutes, 39 seconds

You know, anything anything we could do to make improvements on on where it is now, you know.

25:43

25 minutes, 43 seconds

Yeah. And I like diverse tactics, so sometimes you got to work within the system. Sometimes you work without it.

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25 minutes, 48 seconds

That's fine. Um but I'm wondering if there's anything, you know, you becoming an official nonprofit that's fairly new

25:56

25 minutes, 56 seconds

in your history. So is there anything you are able to share right now um about

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26 minutes, 4 seconds

like what are you going to do? Where are those points where you can make an improvement where you can help people do something easy?

26:12

26 minutes, 12 seconds

Like is there any programs or anything right now that you can share with us about like what what's what's coming or what's happening that that's not not just posting online.

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26 minutes, 23 seconds

Although that was extremely val I don't mean to say it like that. like it's been extremely valuable and like really really cool. You're so right to see the

26:31

26 minutes, 31 seconds

visuals to see the numbers like that really really matters and makes a difference to people. Um but what else is coming?

26:38

26 minutes, 38 seconds

Yeah. Yeah. and and sort of I'll start with that point and like you know we can see these numbers over time you know

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26 minutes, 46 seconds

since I've been doing this since 2018 and we do see them increase and then it sort of hit a plateau in 22 23 24

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26 minutes, 54 seconds

and then last year actually decreased a bit uh which was you know trying to figure that out and

27:01

27 minutes, 1 second

and all the the uh various factors but but that plateau to me I I was I've been thinking about this so much I think it

27:09

27 minutes, 9 seconds

was like okay people are becoming more aware and obviously there's these big cycles of like DEI is in DEI is out and

27:17

27 minutes, 17 seconds

maybe that's that's probably a bigger factor but like you know people are becoming aware of this issue so I think that maybe the increase was sort of this really the easy the easiest stuff the

27:26

27 minutes, 26 seconds

the bottom like bare minimum stuff that they started implementing

27:33

27 minutes, 33 seconds

you know on the festival side and then you sort of hit this wall and and where that wall sort of was was about 40% uh

27:42

27 minutes, 42 seconds

and I'm talking mostly about these big festivals, Bonnaroo, L Palooa, Coachella, etc. 40% of the acts on the

27:49

27 minutes, 49 seconds

lineup have at least one woman or non-binary member. So, it's honestly not a hard thing. We're not talking

27:57

27 minutes, 57 seconds

everybody on stage, all the band members. The numbers drop way down when you look at that. But, and it sort of hit this plateau, right? And I think that that was like sort of to me I'm

28:06

28 minutes, 6 seconds

like not to like over inflate you know the effect that I think Book Woman has had. Honestly I don't think it's been it

28:15

28 minutes, 15 seconds

can you know it was the main factor here but it sort of did increase from you know 30 to 40% over those few years and then it just flattened out

28:23

28 minutes, 23 seconds

and it's like I think that was sort of the bare minimum like and so to me I'm like okay that was sort of like awareness right and now it's like you have to put in a

28:31

28 minutes, 31 seconds

little bit more work. So So it's a maintenance that seems difficult maybe.

28:36

28 minutes, 36 seconds

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I think have you heard anything from I'm interrupting you but have you heard anything from the festivals themselves

28:43

28 minutes, 43 seconds

about h that being difficult or are they not really communicating to you?

28:49

28 minutes, 49 seconds

Um so so yeah I guess to get back to like what we're doing now I'll just I'll just introduce this program because it sort of we'll go back go back to that.

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28 minutes, 57 seconds

So sort of the main thing uh first I do want to preface with we are currently book women is a fiscally sponsored

29:04

29 minutes, 4 seconds

project of fractured atlas who has is an art service organization uh nonprofit 501c3 we as book women are not a

29:13

29 minutes, 13 seconds

nonprofit individually we are pursuing our own 51 for sure semantics yes I need to like make that clear

29:21

29 minutes, 21 seconds

yeah I'm very familiar with a fiscal sponsorship but it's like yes You're an Yeah. So, um Yeah. So, back so so back

29:30

29 minutes, 30 seconds

to this this program is called Booked and uh essentially we are,

29:38

29 minutes, 38 seconds

you know, we're going to post these posters regardless and we're going to post the numbers regardless. And so the point of this was to invite the festival

29:45

29 minutes, 45 seconds

in on it and say, you know, here's your numbers and we can dig in and provide you more of your past numbers and,

29:53

29 minutes, 53 seconds

you know, work with us to use our data and our platform to set a, you know, meaningful but

30:03

30 minutes, 3 seconds

reasonable number for next year that you're going to hit based on, you know, our metrics and how we how we count things. uh for gender diversity uh on

30:13

30 minutes, 13 seconds

your stages. And uh then you know this basically culminates in in a post where

30:20

30 minutes, 20 seconds

you know instead of just the poster we post their pledge and we post this the edited poster the regular poster as we always do and then highlight an artist

30:28

30 minutes, 28 seconds

from from the festival. um that sort of allows us to you know do do sort of an immediate you know uplift to to a to a

30:36

30 minutes, 36 seconds

a woman like an artist an artist independent artist on the other card. So um and the idea with booked and the reason for the name is we were we started a little late

30:45

30 minutes, 45 seconds

in the season but the idea is to actually instead of the spotlight artists the idea is to book an artist where you know book more women will hold

30:54

30 minutes, 54 seconds

an open um you know application uh submission process and then we will you know vet artist you know independent

31:02

31 minutes, 2 seconds

artists and and get a slot from the festival that we're working with and sort of you know give them a short list and we're and essentially, you know,

31:11

31 minutes, 11 seconds

given given an independent artist who doesn't have this whole machine behind them for this opportunity.

31:16

31 minutes, 16 seconds

So, it's like an assessment consultation with the festival, but then also like maybe you you get a a book more women

31:23

31 minutes, 23 seconds

slot that you can help the festival fill with and that's okay. And that's that's sort of the people not on your radar.

31:33

31 minutes, 33 seconds

Yeah. Exactly. and and and you know to give these artists like I said a chance that you know it's so hard especially you know the bigger the festival gets you look at

31:41

31 minutes, 41 seconds

Coachella I mean you can't you can't get Coachella if you're not in a major agency uh you know you need the label

31:48

31 minutes, 48 seconds

the manager you need the whole machine and uh you know for artists who don't have the access to that don't who aren't in these networks yet it's so hard to

31:56

31 minutes, 56 seconds

just break in like you said um hoping to give you know that opportunity and that you know that that one, you know, that

32:06

32 minutes, 6 seconds

one opportunity for that stage, you know, could, you know, we I think we've seen it, you know, over the years. I

32:15

32 minutes, 15 seconds

don't know, Chapel Road is is one that comes to mind where this festival appearance sort of just explodes, right? And you know, not to

32:23

32 minutes, 23 seconds

say that that was certainly a like a a big case, but you know, just the the the opportunity for the exposure to a new

32:32

32 minutes, 32 seconds

audience and then working with the festival and our own socials, you know, digging in with this artist, you know, doing interviews, sharing their

32:40

32 minutes, 40 seconds

experience at the festival. Um, and just, you know, hoping to to give do the sort of artist side of it and the industry side of it all in one.

32:49

32 minutes, 49 seconds

Um, okay. So, we have booked. Is there anything else that Book War is doing?

32:54

32 minutes, 54 seconds

Yeah, so uh you know we've got a couple things coming. Uh first uh you know our podcast that we're we're planning um

33:02

33 minutes, 2 seconds

called Measured and there's an introductory episode uh it's essentially an interview with me but uh you you know

33:11

33 minutes, 11 seconds

talking about really digging in like I had mentioned before digging into all of these

33:17

33 minutes, 17 seconds

uh you know roadblocks points of of you know decision making and like what goes

33:24

33 minutes, 24 seconds

into the decisions um what influences them where what are the difficulties from both sides. Um, you know, season

33:33

33 minutes, 33 seconds

one will is will be focused specifically on music festivals essentially taking it from the beginning to how do we get to that poster.

33:40

33 minutes, 40 seconds

Yeah. and and you know looking at it from from every side and really sort of informing you know our future programs I

33:47

33 minutes, 47 seconds

think is part of this to really dig in have the conversations bring in the data and then also have conversations with the people who are doing this day-to-day

33:55

33 minutes, 55 seconds

uh and uncover those leverage points like we talked about to uh to really see like

34:03

34 minutes, 3 seconds

you know I for example yeah yeah you know for example like the festivals you know will get sent lists

34:11

34 minutes, 11 seconds

from agencies, right? Uh and like who they're who's touring, who they can who they're pushing right now, and it's like, okay, well, who who are the

34:19

34 minutes, 19 seconds

agencies signing? Who are they sending over? Who are like who's on these lists? Who are the agents, right? There's I mean, and

34:26

34 minutes, 26 seconds

then you go back to the, you know, labels, everything like there's just like so much to dig into. I think like the po the point of the podcast is to

34:34

34 minutes, 34 seconds

really get into the weeds on these things and and on like on the way really learn ourselves and then you know invite everybody else in on it. Um that's how we can change things.

34:45

34 minutes, 45 seconds

Yeah. Cool.

34:48

34 minutes, 48 seconds

Okay Rosie. Hey listeners. Rosie stop barking.

34:56

34 minutes, 56 seconds

Stop huffing and puffing.

34:58

34 minutes, 58 seconds

Hey listeners. Just had to stop here to let you know that there will be a Patreon exclusive bonus moment from this interview where I talk to Abby about how

35:06

35 minutes, 6 seconds

she actually creates these posters that show the gender disparity without using AI. I thought it was interesting. I

35:14

35 minutes, 14 seconds

still think I sort of understand it. I'm not really sure. Anyway, head to my Patreon, sign up there, listen to Bonus Moments, and here's the rest of the interview.

35:24

35 minutes, 24 seconds

Is there anything I don't know how many interviews you've done for Book More Women, but like is there anything like any myths you want to dispel or anything

35:33

35 minutes, 33 seconds

you're tired of answering or getting asked or anything I didn't ask that you wish I did?

35:39

35 minutes, 39 seconds

Well, yeah. Honestly, I have not done that much and that is largely because I as a person am so introverted. So, I'm

35:47

35 minutes, 47 seconds

really like just getting used to putting myself out there. Honestly, this uh you know during this relaunch and the um we

35:56

35 minutes, 56 seconds

did a crowdfunding uh our first ever crowdfunding campaign in March uh that was sort of the first time that I really

36:03

36 minutes, 3 seconds

attached my face with book more women and um so it's been a journey for me and we have this uh I think you know maybe if

36:11

36 minutes, 11 seconds

there's there's anything um well maybe maybe two quick things uh first the you know we talked about the the the graphic

36:19

36 minutes, 19 seconds

portion of it But the research that we put into actually the you know getting getting all of the

36:27

36 minutes, 27 seconds

artists identities right and true to the the person is uh you know we don't use I we don't

36:35

36 minutes, 35 seconds

data scrape we we do this all by hand and you know for the first seven years or so it was entirely me and then we I now have some volunteers that that help out and

36:43

36 minutes, 43 seconds

they're awesome and um but yeah we do this all by hand individually every art like one artist at a time And and now that we're actually doing the numbers

36:52

36 minutes, 52 seconds

with each individual member of a band, you know, it's really time consuming, but we try we do our best to get it

37:00

37 minutes

right to the point of even you know, DMing the band or reaching out to management or whoever just to make sure that we're not uh you know getting these

37:08

37 minutes, 8 seconds

things wrong. And it feels weird for sure at times to be like putting everybody into these three buckets, right? And uh the reason

37:16

37 minutes, 16 seconds

why we did start digging in was so we could actually pull out the non-binary uh like people as a as to get that

37:24

37 minutes, 24 seconds

percentage because it's so often non-binary is just lumped in with women, right?

37:29

37 minutes, 29 seconds

So like I was like at the point where I was like I think we can dig in and do this individually. So let's do this to get this actual number.

37:34

37 minutes, 34 seconds

The numbers help you know awareness helps and like you got to Yeah. like follow.

37:40

37 minutes, 40 seconds

Yeah. So like like you know doing that uh like for example we we did our book partnership um we have a few uh maybe five festivals announced now and we did

37:49

37 minutes, 49 seconds

this with uh Treefort in in Boise and they're they're awesome just

37:57

37 minutes, 57 seconds

Warren Lemon just played there um like a few months ago. Yeah, it yeah and uh you know one of our one of you know our director of operations Jess was there

38:05

38 minutes, 5 seconds

and and uh it's just like a great awesome community really focused thing and so so anyway that that lineup took

38:13

38 minutes, 13 seconds

us probably about 50 people hours to to research to complete. So that's just that was like the idea that I was

38:21

38 minutes, 21 seconds

trying to bring up like we we are really careful about this and we it's really important to me to get these things right and we don't make assumptions to

38:29

38 minutes, 29 seconds

like great extent. So yeah.

38:32

38 minutes, 32 seconds

Yeah. Yeah. There's that and uh yeah just the the other part just being that team like behind us. We have this, you

38:38

38 minutes, 38 seconds

know, very small team and uh, you know, to to be completely honest, I just got

38:47

38 minutes, 47 seconds

paid from Book More Woman for the first time for do, you know, I do this full time now and and, you know, with the fundraising, this initial fiscal sponsorship

38:55

38 minutes, 55 seconds

fundraising has allowed us allowed me to actually, you know, get a the little bit that will help me continue to do this full time.

39:04

39 minutes, 4 seconds

And then everybody else is volunteering their time and I just it's have been so like it's been just so awesome getting these people on board like that are

39:12

39 minutes, 12 seconds

passionate and just like everybody has reached out to me that is part of this.

39:17

39 minutes, 17 seconds

it hasn't been like I've had to go searching and then and we have this board now board of directors which is all pretty much all working artists

39:23

39 minutes, 23 seconds

uh like I had mentioned and just like yeah it's been really great to to have you know this start building a team

39:32

39 minutes, 32 seconds

behind this and I'm really excited to you know keep working with them and and build see really what we can do.

39:39

39 minutes, 39 seconds

Amazing. Well, where can people find you in order to learn more and support you?

39:44

39 minutes, 44 seconds

Yeah. So, uh, our bookmorwoman.com will have the links to everything. Um, you can donate, uh, via Fractured Atlas. The

39:53

39 minutes, 53 seconds

links are on the website. Uh, that's taxdeductible. Uh, and you can find all the posters and everything on our

40:00

40 minutes

Instagram. That's Bookmore Women. Uh, we're also a few other places, so you can you can find those all on on there, LinkedIn, Substack, and then that kind of stuff. Yeah.

40:10

40 minutes, 10 seconds

Cool. Well, Abby Carbono, thank you so much for joining me on But Her Lyrics. Yeah, it's been so great to talk to you.

40:17

40 minutes, 17 seconds

Thank you. Thank you so much for having me.

OUTRO:

Thank you Abbey for your time, so excited to see where Book More Women goes from here, and even more excited to hopefully be collaborating on some trainings or something else cool in the future.

You can support this podcast by liking my youtube channel, and sharing, subscribing, and reviewing But Her Lyrics... Wherever you get your podcasts - it’s free and it helps. To find episode transcripts, or to find out more about what I do, my book, my trainings, my patreon, head to shawnapotter.com

To learn about all things WOW, we have shows coming up in July and August, and A NEW FUCKING ALBUM CALLED TIME UNDER TENSION! Get all the deets at linktr.ee/waronwomen.

If you want to support my work, or anyone that might deal with harassment in public spaces, now is a great Safer Spaces: Online Course which you can preview or sign up for at shawnapotter.com so head there now and thanks for listening.